Advice for the best sounding portable cd player
Nov 1, 2001 at 12:47 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 18

cscamp

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Hello everyone!!! i need an advice for a great sounding portable cd player...... i've been looking for a while but i just can't seem to figure out what to buy..........i'm thinking about a cd player with 1-bit D/A converters or 1 bit MASH converters but i really dont know what brand should i buy.........is there a portable cdplayer out there that has a higher D/A converter? i doubt it though......any suggestions would be greatly appreciated......thanks in advance
 
Nov 1, 2001 at 2:53 AM Post #2 of 18
Don't judge DACs by bits. Numbers don't equal sound quality. Panasonic players are regarded as having the best DACs. Sonys come in second, but only if you use the line out.
 
Nov 1, 2001 at 2:58 AM Post #3 of 18
I thought Sony's were better... I mean, Mr. Kevin Gilmore over there uses a Sony to feed his Stax Omega II portably (thats a $4+ grand headphone system)...
 
Nov 1, 2001 at 3:23 AM Post #4 of 18
I personally like the sony more, but a lot of people will disagree with me. Hey, everyone has a pcdp. Borrow one from a friend and try it out. Auditioning is the only way to choose the right one.
 
Nov 1, 2001 at 3:29 AM Post #5 of 18
A couple of comments about DACs.

First, you're going to hear FAR more difference between different headphones than you will hear between two different DACs through the same headphones. Get what I'm saying here? Unless a DAC has some kind of serious sonic flaw (basically, it would have to be damaged or defective), the cans you listen to are going to make a much bigger difference in the sound than the DAC. So don't kill yourself trying to determine which is the best DAC in a portable player. Almost any portable player will provide you with a good enough DAC to act as a source. You should be more concerned about the quality of the amplification provided at the headphone jack and which headphones to use than whether the DAC is a Sony or Panasonic.

Second -- even if you are totally familiar with a given set of cans, and therefore are capable of determining the subtle differences between various DACs, that doesn't necessarily mean that you'll agree with John OR chych. Maybe with your particular cans, and your preferred style of music, an Emerson or Radio Shack DAC will be the "best." Just because a lot of people here like Panasonic doesn't mean you won't think Panasonic is too dark, or too bright, or... you get the idea. Maybe when all is said and done, you won't care which CD player you use as long as it can drive your Sony V600s with the volume on 10 and the mega-bass switch turned on.
wink.gif
(Note, if this IS a good description of you, then run -- don't walk -- to the doctor's office to get your hearing checked. Friends don't let friends listen to V600s.)
smily_headphones1.gif


I guess basically what I'm getting at is this: The best sounding CD player is the one driving your favorite headphones.
 
Nov 1, 2001 at 4:53 AM Post #6 of 18
I disagree that DACs sound the same. Although the basic character of the DAC and the analog section are much more subtly different compared to the huge differences in headphones, there are still distinct "sounds". Go to AudioAsylum for more info on that. Make sure you get the best sounding CDP by judging the line out 'cause you're going to get better cans and an amp eventually... unless you're not an audiophile.
 
Nov 1, 2001 at 1:23 PM Post #7 of 18
Quote:

Originally posted by Jon Beilin
I disagree that DACs sound the same.


*Sigh* Could you do me a favor? I'm a little bit confused. Please point out for me where in my previous post I said that all DACs sound the same. It would really help me out because I'm having a hard time remembering where I said that.

Is there some kind of disease that head-fi participants get, that causes them to add sentences or ideas to my posts that weren't there in the first place?
wink.gif
This is my second post in a little over two hours that's been immediately misquoted.

Quote:

Although the basic character of the DAC and the analog section are much more subtly different compared to the huge differences in headphones, there are still distinct "sounds". Go to AudioAsylum for more info on that.


(Puts on "grizzled old man" voice.) Well, sonny, I don't need to go anywhere to determine whether different DACs sound the same. I've been analyzing headphones and music sources for over ten years now. I know there are differences between the sounds of DACs. My point, which you seem to agree with, is that the differences in headphones are far more noticeable and far more important than the subtle differences between DACs.

Quote:

Make sure you get the best sounding CDP by judging the line out 'cause you're going to get better cans and an amp eventually...


And the "best sounding CDP" will vary depending on the type of music you listen to and the headphones you use. It's impossible to pick "the best-sounding CD player" now, if you're going to change headphones and/or amplification later. Maybe a Panasonic CD player will sound great now driving a pair of Grado SR-60s from its headphone jack. But maybe when you upgrade to Sennheiser HD580s and a headroom supreme amp, the Sony DAC will sound better.

Maybe a harsh-sounding CDP for most people will sound GREAT to someone who has 5-10 dB hearing loss in the treble range. Maybe a CDP with a strong mega-bass switch will sound great to someone with 15 dB hearing loss in the bass region due to their job as a jackhammer operator.

My point here is that the differences in DACs are far too subtle to make them the primary concern when picking out a CD player. The PRIMARY concern should be for a decent headphone jack (if you don't have an amp) and for features. The idea that one particular CD player has the "best" DAC is a myth.

Russ
 
Nov 1, 2001 at 1:58 PM Post #8 of 18
I'd say my opinion falls somewhere between Russ's and Jon's.
Generally different CDP do sound different and some are much better than the others. However, when it comes to portable units this difference is smaller and yes the auxilary eqipment (phones and amp) become more important.
I won't go into an argument over this. Just to say, cscamp go to an electronic store and audition a couple of players from Sony, Panasonic and perhaps Philips within your budget. Do it with your cans and recordings that you know well. Look also at the built quality and functionality of the unit. When it comes to portable audio, I'm ready to trade some (but not much) sound quality for a durability and some good features. I mean things like good anti skip (if you're planning walking with it) or a beefier headamp etc.
 
Nov 1, 2001 at 4:32 PM Post #9 of 18
Russ, don't take it personally. I didn't point the post towards you. I'm just giving my opinion and giving cscamp a darn good link for information. I didn't quote you and say that I disagreed with you. There is, however, a notion among non-audiophiles that all DACs sound the same because it's all just ones and zeros. I don't want cscamp to fall into that category. Both of us are recommending the same thing: look for synergy between player and headphone.

There's an attitude prevailing on head-fi that we're attacking each other.
 
Nov 1, 2001 at 6:31 PM Post #10 of 18
Quote:

Originally posted by Jon Beilin
There's an attitude prevailing on head-fi that we're attacking each other.


My apologies. I didn't intend my post as an attack. You said, "I disagree that DACs sound the same." I thought you were implying that I said that, given that your post came immediately after mine.

Regarding the differences between DACs -- you can't make a DAC sound too different from most others without coloring the sound. A DAC with rolled-off highs or "warmer" mids might appeal to some people, but roll the highs off too much or warm up the midrange too much and that DAC ceases becoming an accurate 'interpreter' of the original source material. The theoretical perfect DAC (Digital --> Analog Converter) for a given CD would be one that does exactly the opposite of what the original ADC (Analog --> Digital Converter) did when the recording was made. That's on the assumption that you wanted a perfectly accurate rendition of the source material. Many people don't.

Still, you could theoretically have the best DAC in the world to convert your 1s and 0s to music, and then color it by changing the equalization or playing it back through less-than-accurate equipment (tube amps come to mind -- many of which are very pleasant to hear but aren't terribly accurate). That's why I made such a point of how something that sounds bad to you or I might sound great to someone else. There are simply too many factors (such as partial hearing loss, which most of us have to some degree) to say definitively what CD player or DAC or set of headphones is the best.

Anyhow, let me reiterate that I didn't want this to turn adversarial. Glad to see we're (mostly) on the same page.

Cheers --
Russ
 
Nov 1, 2001 at 10:43 PM Post #11 of 18
My two scents (parsley and sage).

The Pcdp thing seems to me to be more about the amp in the unit than the DAC (at least, the amp makes much more difference in the sound to my ears). Both my Sony and my Panasonic sound good using the line out through my CHA47 amp, but IMO, the panasonic sounds WAY better through the headphone jack than the sony, a finding I attribute almost entirely to the chessy little amp in the sony unit. On the other hand, there is an annoying noise floor on the panasonic 470 that i sometimes find irritating if I am in a quiet environment.

If you can find a panasonic 460 used or old stock, I liked that unit ALOT before it went the way of the abused and overused and became a dustcollector for my audio junk drawer.
 
Nov 2, 2001 at 12:19 AM Post #13 of 18
Quote:

Originally posted by r3cc0s
do most people use the xbs or mega bass switches to listen to their music?


If you were to poll everyone out there who owns a PCDP, I'd say the answer is probably "yes." Most people use mega-bass.

Most people interested enough in high-quality audio and headphone reproduction to be participating here probably do NOT use the mega-bass option. There are two main reasons why:

1. Older mega-bass circuits added lots of noise in addition to boosting the midbass response as much as 15dB.

2. Newer "digital" mega-bass circuits add bass without adding (much) noise. However, I have yet to find a mega-bass (or super-bass, or xbs... whatever) enhancement that's subtle enough to be useful with good headphones. Typically mega-bass is designed to make crappy no-bass headphones sound like they have some kick. Invariably it's way too much.

About the best mega-bass circuit I've ever played with is on my Sony D-211 portable CD player, from 1992. It was (I think) one of the first digital mega-bass options, and used a DSP to act directly on the digital bitstream before the DAC could act on it. The result was low noise, and 3 levels to choose from (four if you count "off"). Level 1 is subtle enough to actually improve the sound of many cheap anemic headphones, and actually sounds okay with better headphones that need a little help in the bass department (like Grado SR-60s). Level 2 is only useful with really crappy headphones that have almost no bass response to speak of in the first place. Level 3 is not useful with any headphones I've ever tried. It really pumps up the bass to ridiculous levels, which cheap headphones can't handle anyway and good headphones didn't need in the first place.

It's interesting to note that the Level 3 mega-bass setting on the D-211 is actually WEAKER than the mega-bass switch on my (much newer) Sony D-E200 portable (a 2 year old design). The D-E200 claims to be a digital mega-bass design, like the older D-211, but it is absolutely the most ridiculously over-powered mega-bass option I've ever heard. Worse, it has only one option -- "on" or "off." Apparently the 'wimpy' mega-bass options just didn't sell well.

It might be nice if a PCDP came out that had a true "warm" circuit rather than mega-bass. I envision something which uses a DSP to slightly warm up music... rolling off the highs slightly while subtly increasing the bass and lower midrange. Unfortunately there really isn't a market for it except amongst those of use who use good headphones in the first place. And we know how much the manufacturers care about what we want to see in a PCDP.
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Nov 2, 2001 at 12:47 PM Post #14 of 18
I pretty much agree with what was already said about the mega bass. However not all MB circuits are crappy IMO. For instance the MB on Sharp MD portables is quite OK. It has 4 levels (off,1,2,3) I must admit I use level 1 somethimes with earbuds without foamies. Still get the crisp highs (no foam) and a slight bass boost which makes the overall sound more impactful. Also I found the Sharp MB the most balanced in terms of proportional low-midbass enhancement, i.e. it is not only a midbass booster.
Agree with Ross 100% on the newer Sonys megabass- crap.
 
Nov 2, 2001 at 2:55 PM Post #15 of 18
I currently own a Sony D-EJ721, which has a three-level (off/mid/high) "Digital Mega Bass" button. But both of the "on" options could have been labeled "boomy" and "boomier". No wonder why I never use that piece of crap feature for any of my music listening!
 

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