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ADEL Technology - Discussion Thread - Update: March 27, 2016: Please Read 2nd Post of the Thread

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by eaglewings, Mar 7, 2016.
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  1. BiggerHead
     
    In other words... the iem can maybe more efficiently transfer pressure to the ear drums at low frequency than some other speaker.  That pressure is called VOLUME. So what?  We're saying iem's are efficient? (duh) bass heavy?(depends on the iem I guess)  We're saying they're  too loud?  You don't have a volume knob?  This is all still just volume.
     
    What's being tossed around is the idea that there is some kind of voodoo oscillatory pressure on an ear drum that is not related to volume, that's pushing harder than it sounds like it's pushing. That sounds like bunk to me.  Your ear drum either has pressure or it doesn't and you can convert that pressure from time domain to frequency and that's the volume of the various frequencies.  That's it.  There's no voodoo silent pressure. 
     
  2. Brooko Contributor
    Why are you so aggressive with this?  Throwing terms like "bunk" around  - but I've read both papers and what has been suggested seems plausible (to me anyway).  It's working on theories from earlier research (Beranek), and then theorises how the closed ear canal can introduce pressure oscillations.
     
    Unfortunately because of copyright I can't quote sections from the paper - but I've read through both of them and especially the AES paper seems to be working on some pretty solid material - especially around pages 5-7.  Anyway they've later modelled it, expounded a theory, and then tested that theory.
     
    The work they've done has been published by the Acoustical Society of America through the American Institute of Physics, and its been good enough that funding has been granted by the NSF to continue their research.  This isn't given out for "bunk" theories.
     
    Not only that, but they've used resource and experts at Stanford to help them with the modelling.
     
    You can carry on with the voodoo comments, and trying to cast aspersions - but I for one am really interested in the actual science of this.  If you don't have actual proof that these theories cannot work - then perhaps kindly allow those of us who are genuinely interested to have the chance to discuss them with an open mind.
     
    Canyon Runner likes this.
  3. castleofargh Contributor
     I wasn't advocating in favor or against the ADEL, just explaining how I understood why a distinction was made in the way the pressure is transmitted. and indeed that leads to making the bass louder when sealed, so I imagine the all problem would depend on the original signature of the IEM, and how well we notice when there is too much sub bass on a sealed IEM. the main point seems to recommend avoiding massively boosted sub. not sure if the way to achieve this really matters, but it's still potentially good advice.
     
  4. ken6217
    This is much ado about nothing. Making something seem very complicated and saying they have a solution. It's like George Bush with the fuzzy math.

    So let's skip to the chase. You're playing music directly in your ear. If you play it loud you could be facing hearing loss. Plain and simple. No need to get involved in any other conversation on the matter.

    Presure or no pressure, it's the volume that counts. And no I can't play my A12's lower.
     
  5. Brooko Contributor
    Well before writing it off - I'd like to be able to see whats behind it (if that's OK with you) [​IMG]
     
    I have a pair of U6, and I AM noticing less flare ups with my permanent tinnitus, and I AM able to listen at a lower level.  So while you may not be noticing any changes - I am.  And that is why I'd really like the chance to learn more about it.
     
    The problem lies with some here who are already crying "foul" without being open minded enough to actually allow the man to have his say, and further explain some of the research. I know Steven is trying to set up a Spreecast so he can answer some of the questions.
     
    Ken - did you actually read the papers?
     
  6. krismusic Contributor
    Brooko, I have a pair of CIEM's that I love but certain tracks set my Tinnitus ringing like a bell! Do you find that the ADEL stops this happening?
     
  7. Brooko Contributor
    It seems to be helping, but that's why I want to learn more. What ive found is that if I'm A/Bing against another IEM, I tend to listen to both louder. But if I'm listening exclusively to the U6 then I tend to have the volume lower, and my tinnitus doesn't seem to be as strong.

    I can only guess this might have something to do with the acoustic reflex being triggered with the introduction of the 2nd IEM - but that's why I'd like to actually quiz Stephen on it and see what he thinks. I simply don't know enough about it.

    I do agree with Ken on one thing though - if you keep the volume loud, it won't matter if you have the Adel module or not. You're going to damage your hearing. What I'm liking with the U6 so far is that I can listen softly and still get gobs of detail. And I'm wondering if that is the benefit of Adel .......
     
  8. Hawaiibadboy Contributor

      I am going to quote this guy because like him...this makes too much sense aside from the one point in question which is "D".
     
  9. ken6217

    I didn't because I have one argument only. Volume in ones ear. You can't escape that fact. I don't care if the module relieves pressure, makes me dinner, can wash my car, and drive me to work. Volume is what is damaging to your ears. Go check OSHA's standards in the workplace and see if sound decibels matter.
     
    As I have said many times, leaf blowers, chain saws, constructions equipment, loud venues can all cause hearing loss after extended periods of exposure.
     
    Now I will say that I love the sound of my A12's and I think that I can listen to them without fatigue. This may be the module, but it is doing nothing for me in terms of playing it lower and saving my hearing.
     
  10. BiggerHead
     


    I can certainly respect this reply. The point about not noticing sub-bass sounds like much more grounded way of looking at things to me, than trying to make funny linguistic distinctions about "pneumatic" or "sound" pressure. Sure, huge volume 10 hz could do something bad. Do you need some high tech solution to prevent iems with huge volume at 10hz? Maybe? I kind of doubt it, but I won't write it off.
     
  11. BiggerHead
    And I'd still like to see the papers that are not conference proceedings. I can't see why this work would only be published in conference proceedings.
     
  12. Brooko Contributor

    Jeepers - you asked for papers and because they were published for a conference they aren't good enough? Would anything be good enough for you? The Acoustic Society obviously thought they were good enough. The guys at Stanford thought the science sound enough to help model it. The NSF thought it was good enough to fund further research.
     
  13. gregorio
     
    No it's not, it's called pressure, sound pressure.
     
     
    Decibels measure sound pressure, NOT volume! OSHA uses a dB weighted scale, the "A" weighting, which is ironically the weighting LEAST suited to measuring volume (loudness)! Loudness is measured, somewhat inaccurately, using the LKFS or LUFS scale.
     
    I'm not arguing for or against ADEL, I'm arguing that loudness and sound pressure are two different things, not the same thing! This is hardly new science, it's been known since the 1930s. Sound does not have to be uncomfortably loud to be damaging!
     
    G
     
    Hawaiibadboy and Canyon Runner like this.
  14. ken6217

    It still comes down to volume. Call it sound pressure or whatever you like.
     
    When you calibrate a home theater with a SPL meter to make the level of each speaker 75 decibels, you are doing this so that you hear the same volume from all 6 speakers from your seating position. So yes you are using sound pressure, but it is the volume of that in which you are hearing.
     
    There is no need to make this complicated.
     
  15. gregorio
     
    It doesn't come down to volume, it comes down to sound pressure level. If we're going to calling two different things the same thing, it doesn't matter what you call it, why not horse power?
     
     
    Output a 90Hz signal to say your left speaker, adjusting the volume until your SPL meter says 75dB. Now, without adjusting the volume, output say a 3kHz signal instead of the 90Hz signal. They both sound the same volume right?
     
    G
     
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