A question about interconnect "burn-in"
Jul 8, 2008 at 5:02 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 20

Golden Monkey

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...Ok, I know burn-in is a contentious issue, so please refrain from mud-slinging if someone posts something you don't agree with...

I just got some Signal Cable Silver Resolution ICs w/ Eichmann Silver Bullets to go between my DAC and hp amp, and they've been burning in for about 20 hours now. It's hard to A/B them with my old copper Monsters without unplugging constantly, but I have the Monsters on the line out from my player to input 2 on the amp (so I can play SACDs), and as stated the Signals from DAC to input 1. The sound signature of the DAC is quite different from that of the CDP, so there's no direct comparison, but when I play a standard CD, I can easily switch inputs on the amp. When I did this with Monsters on both inputs, I could hear the difference easily (but again, that was different DAC chips). Anyway, on to my real question...enough background.

What I want to know is...what is the effect of burn-in on interconnect cables? Frank recommends 50 hours on the cables, but at 20, I'm not sure I'm hearing much difference between the silver and monsters. How does burn-in affect the sound, compared to a brand new one that's exactly the same? For headphones and components it makes sense, as there is a physical and mechanical change ("break-in" would be more apt). I'm taking a guess here, but would it be an opening up of soundstage, tighter bass, treble extension, or what? I know that on some level, silver and copper, or any cable for that matter, will sound different from another, but I'm not sure what to listen for in regards to burn-in. Thx in advance, folks!
 
Jul 8, 2008 at 6:06 PM Post #2 of 20

meat01

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there really is no rules on burn in time or what and how much it effects the sound. It is different with everyone and every cable on how much of an effect it has on the sound or if cable burn in even exists. That is the reason it is such a touchy subject. A lot of people claim burn in is just yours ears getting used to the sound.

There really isn't even proof that copper sounds different than silver. It is a fact that Silver is ~7% more conductive, but the amount of difference in sound quality is debateable.

I would just enjoy the music and not worry about burn in
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Jul 8, 2008 at 6:13 PM Post #3 of 20

Rico67

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i think the only answer is :
listen it and you'll know if there is or not an improvement in the sound with time.
Some sites indicate 150 hours for burning cables.
Some sites indicate that you can burning your cable without signal, just plug it with source and amp on...
I don't know if there is an answer, but i'm sure that all depends of the synergie bw sources and amp.
Some amp are affect with silver cables, others not.
 
Jul 8, 2008 at 6:15 PM Post #4 of 20

Golden Monkey

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I understand that, regarding burn-in time and all that, but I mean, assuming burn-in is a real thing, and not placebo or whatever, what would you be hearing in an unburnt-in cable vs. one with X amount of hours (fully burned in)?

I don't mean the differences in copper vs. silver, or becoming accustomed to the sound of a cable, I mean...let's assume I have two identical cables, one unused, and one I plug in and burn, and I walk away...I come back after 1,000 hours of burn-in, and put the headphones on. I then A/B between the two...what "should" I hear as different? Some say "nothing!", some say "a dramatic difference", but what I want to know is, IF there is a difference, what is it, specifically? Argh...frustrating...lol...
 
Jul 8, 2008 at 6:57 PM Post #5 of 20

bigshot

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If burn in exists, it should be measurable... Do wires become more conductive with use? Can people detect a difference between burned in cables and not burned in cables in controlled testing? Yes? No?

If the described effect of burn in is inconsistent, and it can't be measured or isolated in controlled testing, the odds lean towards it being a case of applying the concept of "breaking in" to an object to which it doesn't apply.

See ya
Steve
 
Jul 8, 2008 at 7:06 PM Post #6 of 20

Know Talent

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...and maybe it's more your ears "adapting" to a implanted perception promulgated by unscrupulous marketing dillweeds who cite scientific sounding half-truths to support bogus claims???
 
Jul 8, 2008 at 8:13 PM Post #8 of 20

Rico67

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A real things is :
Time change perception of things.
 
Jul 8, 2008 at 8:25 PM Post #9 of 20

Golden Monkey

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Ok, well...let me phrase it this way..."if you BELIEVE in cable burn-in, what changes do you percieve comparing a burned in cable to one that is exactly the same yet not burned in?"

I'm not looking for anecdotal evidence, references to auditory illusion, random debunking or proof it exists, I'd just like to know what it is that people feel actually changes. If you don't want to reply for fear of flame wars or insults, just PM me...that's fine.
 
Jul 8, 2008 at 8:38 PM Post #10 of 20

Know Talent

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Ok, well...let me phrase it this way..."if you BELIEVE in cable burn-in, what changes do you percieve comparing a burned in cable to one that is exactly the same yet not burned in?"

I'm not looking for anecdotal evidence, references to auditory illusion, random debunking or proof it exists, I'd just like to know what it is that people feel actually changes. If you don't want to reply for fear of flame wars or insults, just PM me...that's fine.




...pssst

"It's the one hand clapping thing again..."
wink.gif
biggrin.gif
 
Jul 8, 2008 at 8:49 PM Post #11 of 20

Golden Monkey

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Know Talent /img/forum/go_quote.gif
...pssst

"It's the one hand clapping thing again..."
wink.gif
biggrin.gif



OOH! I know this one!

clap.gif


"The sound of one hand clapping is the sound of the other hand, the absent or invisible hand that claps because one hand cannot clap, there can only be two hands clapping. One hand cannot clap without the other. The one hand is made complete only by the other, so that even in its individuality, the one hand claps with the other."

"The sound of one hand clapping cannot be heard. We do not have the physical capacity to hear the sound of one hand clapping. Therefore, we have to recognize our human limitation. When we accept our human limitation, we can reconcile ourselves to the natural world, and can live in harmony with the universe."

"The question is logically inconsistent, and therefore cannot be answered logically. To answer the question, we would have to accept the premise that one hand can clap. But this is an impossibility, so there is no logical answer to the question."

"The question has no answer, because it asks: `What is the sound of something which has no sound?'"

"The question is intended to play a trick on the listener, by asking the listener to try to answer something that has no answer."

"There is no sound, and if you seek to discover the sound, you have to accept that there is nothing. If you can accept the nothingness, then you have freed yourself from the need to intellectualize experience, and are free to be aware of existence."
 
Jul 8, 2008 at 8:57 PM Post #12 of 20

Know Talent

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif
OOH! I know this one!

clap.gif


"The sound of one hand clapping is the sound of the other hand, the absent or invisible hand that claps because one hand cannot clap, there can only be two hands clapping. One hand cannot clap without the other. The one hand is made complete only by the other, so that even in its individuality, the one hand claps with the other."

"The sound of one hand clapping cannot be heard. We do not have the physical capacity to hear the sound of one hand clapping. Therefore, we have to recognize our human limitation. When we accept our human limitation, we can reconcile ourselves to the natural world, and can live in harmony with the universe."

"The question is logically inconsistent, and therefore cannot be answered logically. To answer the question, we would have to accept the premise that one hand can clap. But this is an impossibility, so there is no logical answer to the question."

"The question has no answer, because it asks: `What is the sound of something which has no sound?'"

"The question is intended to play a trick on the listener, by asking the listener to try to answer something that has no answer."

"There is no sound, and if you seek to discover the sound, you have to accept that there is nothing. If you can accept the nothingness, then you have freed yourself from the need to intellectualize experience, and are free to be aware of existence."



"Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-galunga "
biggrin.gif
biggrin.gif
biggrin.gif
 
Jul 8, 2008 at 9:01 PM Post #13 of 20

Golden Monkey

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Yeah, I got that goin' for me, which is nice...
 
Jul 8, 2008 at 9:03 PM Post #14 of 20

nick_charles

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Ok, well...let me phrase it this way..."if you BELIEVE in cable burn-in, what changes do you percieve comparing a burned in cable to one that is exactly the same yet not burned in?"

I'm not looking for anecdotal evidence,...I'd just like to know what it is that people feel actually changes ....



But you are looking for anecdotal evidence, this is not a criticism of anecdotal evidence, but that is clearly what you are after.

If I say I hear a difference between A and B and describe it that is clearly anecdotal, same if I say I do not hear a difference.

Also asking for people who specifically believe in burn-in raises a few problems. Are these people who believe in it now, because they have had experience of it in the past, or do they believe in it because they have been convinced it is real by some external force. If the latter then their impressions may not be reliable since they have a belief system that will predispose them to construct differences whether or not they exist.
 
Jul 8, 2008 at 9:12 PM Post #15 of 20

Golden Monkey

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Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif
But you are looking for anecdotal evidence, this is not a criticism of anecdotal evidence, but that is clearly what you are after.

If I say I hear a difference between A and B and describe it that is clearly anecdotal, same if I say I do not hear a difference.

Also asking for people who specifically believe in burn-in raises a few problems. Are these people who believe in it now, because they have had experience of it in the past, or do they believe in it because they have been convinced it is real by some external force. If the latter then their impressions may not be reliable since they have a belief system that will predispose them to construct differences whether or not they exist.



Yeah, ok...I AM looking for anecdotal evidence, or maybe just anecdotal anecdotes, not necessarily evidence. While you're at it, feel free to show me your vacation pics of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster, lol. Point taken.

By asking for "believers", I just mean that if you feel it is an actual phenomenon, to describe your perceptions of what changed. I'm not looking to prove/disprove God/The Easter Bunny or anything, just something like "after X amount of time, I felt like the this did this, the something else did that", etc. Not "at 46.75 hours, the frequencies between 2.05K and 2.065K rolled off by .0032db, and I have the oscilloscope graphs to prove it" variety...
 

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