[rsaavedra]

Nineteen likes on Facebook's Headfi group post so far after one day, so it deserves its own thread here on Head-fi I think.
 
I love to listen to music, and would like to say that being a tech/audio enthusiast has helped me actually become more skeptic and a better critical thinker in general.
 
So behold the audio truths, if you can take them :evil emoticon here:
 
https://numeralnine.wordpress.com/2013/10/09/a-brief-guide-to-audio-for-the-skeptical-consumer/

 

[icebear]

And what is the point in linking to a collection of quotes from Oct. 2013 ?

Btw ... what is Facebook ?

 

[rsaavedra]

  And what is the point in linking to a collection of quotes from Oct. 2013 ?

 
Quote:

 what is Facebook ?

Ah, I see. Well, here´s a hint: something slightly older than quotes from 2013.

 

[castleofargh]

  And what is the point in linking to a collection of quotes from Oct. 2013 ?

Btw ... what is Facebook ?

well it's a nice repository of links, if only for that, it's cool that it was done. (a few links are dead btw)
 
and facebook I know all about that! it's that stuff you log in and go like a brand to get 20% off of something you wished to buy. then you deactivate the account until next time you need that powerful feature.

 

[prot]

Part 2 of that article (linked at bottom) sounds more useful as it talks about things that do work: acoustic treatments, dual subs, dsp, etc..

 

[Audioholic123]

Great link.
 
_______________________________________________________________
 
Let me tell you something....
I never really listened to headphones when growing up. I listened to music through my Sony hifi all the time instead.
To me it was the best hifi in the world. But one day whilst browsing the hifi section of amazon, i came across a pair of headphones,. I was 18 and naive, knowing nothing about the technical side of audio components and devices. All i thought was " wow they look good" and bought 'em. They where $900 Denons. So being so expensive, i was pretty much expecting to get the band with them. The first time i listened to them - to say i was blown away is a terrible understatement! It was a genuine memorable moment similiar to a first kiss or something. A moment like that from a pair of headphones!!
It sparked a lifelong interest in headphones which sparked an interest in amps and...well you can guess. So here i am today, a self proclaimed audiophile and many years of experience and accumulated knowledge. And still....nothing compares to those old Denon's...( all my other headphones are less than half the price of the Denon's).
 
Sadly, placebo exists...but it exists on different levels. An expensive headphone cited above has the capacity to fill you with wonder...you cannot get that with a cheap one. I can say the same about amps too - i own a $3,000 Linn amp, i wouldn't even compare it to a $200 one. Only in this sentence.
 
Most of it is subjective unless your willing to spend serious dough...then the truth reveals itself.

________________________________________________________________
Quote from thread starters link:
 
“But for now, the evidence would seem to suggest that distinctive amplifier sounds, if they exist at all, are so minute that they form a poor basis for choosing one amplifier over another. Certainly there are still differences between amps, but we are unlikely to hear them.” 
 
I bet if this guy heard the most expensive audio system in the world (dcs) he would take that back.

 

[rsaavedra]

An expensive headphone cited above has the capacity to fill you with wonder...you cannot get that with a cheap one.

You've described somewhat exactly how it works, only incompletely. When one knows that the expensive equipment is playing, our brains will fool us into thinking we are hearing something somewhat different and perhaps better. But you failed to keep going about where the ultimate truth gets exposed. When blind or double blind testing is applied, then we do come to observe that there is no perceivable difference. So the extra expense is effectively worthless. That is the ultimate truth in many cases.

Headphones can and do exhibit significant differences between them though, because that's where the mechanics of drivers are involved, just as in speakers, as the comments in the link point out. That is both observable and measurable. (With respect to speakers, huge and significant differences are also observable and measurable not just between speakers, but for the very same pair of speakers between rooms, speaker positioning, and listener positioning.) The absense of difference are mostly in amplifiers, and particularly interconnects and powercords.

Things that are "human-observable" but not measurable, or not even observable when in properly executed blind testing, are simple results of our cognitive biases and gullibility --> not to be trusted.

 

[Audioholic123]

  You've described somewhat exactly how it works, only incompletely. When one knows that the expensive equipment is playing, our brains will fool us into thinking we are hearing something somewhat better.

 
That's because we often are listening to something better.
 

The absense of difference are mostly in amplifiers, and particularly interconnects and powercords.  

The quality of components inside an amp dictate the quality of the sound. All electrical engineers know this (my father is one). An amp with dirt cheap components and transistors will convey the signal and that's that. However, one made of top components and transistors with the finest capacitors required to convey the signal, will ultimately output a:
                                                                                   better, more preserved, less degraded  signal.
 
Most of these blind tests are done by guys who aren't electrical engineers...This method of testing equipment is not to be trusted, since it doesn't take other elements into account.
 
 
People seem to want to dis-believe the notion of higher price for better sound, but it is reality...
You have to pay more for a better car, pay more for a better house and so on...

 

[rsaavedra]

Originally Posted by Audioholic123 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You have to pay more for a better car, pay more for a better house and so on...

 
You are clearly quite the (gullible) customer, not just in audio, for any salesman wanting to make a huge profit.

 

[Audioholic123]

   
You are clearly quite the (gullible) customer, not just in audio, for any salesman wanting to make a huge profit.

 Not really, it's more down to my knowledge combined with my experience. I am persuaded easily by things i don't know about, but these things i do know about.
 I could go on about how my BMW 5 series is more able than my friends Ford Mondeo. More quality often means more money...

 

[rsaavedra]

You are mixing apples and oranges. Driving experience and enjoyment is subjective, true, but car performance is almost entirely perfectly measurable and cars can be compared easily with no risk of cognitive biases. Very easy to see when a car runs faster, breaks faster, steers better, or has better rankings in let's say independent power tests, or safety tests. Most aspects of real state valuation are also objective and measurable. Beyond the measurable, the audio experience is however entirely subjective, and prone to all sort of self-delusions and cognitive biases.
 
Anyone can claim to know about anything. It's just an unfounded claim after all. But something you don't know enough about (or seem to not know enough about, and might want to look up) is cognitive biases, critical thinking, or at least why blind tests and double blind tests exist and how they work.

 

[Audioholic123]

  You are mixing apples and oranges. Driving experience and enjoyment is subjective, true, but car performance is almost entirely perfectly measurable and cars can be compared easily with no risk of cognitive biases. Very easy to see when a car runs faster, breaks faster, steers better, or has better rankings in let's say independent power tests, or safety tests. Most aspects of real state valuation are also objective and measurable. Beyond the measurable, the audio experience is however entirely subjective, and prone to all sort of self-delusions and cognitive biases.
 
Anyone can claim to know about anything. It's just an unfounded claim after all. But something you don't know enough about (or seem to not know enough about, and might want to look up) is cognitive biases, critical thinking, or at least why blind tests and double blind tests exist and how they work.

You can try to prove me wrong ( or make it sound like i'm wrong with good words)  but i'm correct. I know exactly what you mean by cognitive bias, irony is, your link is full of it! I'm the one advocating truth.
 

   
You are clearly quite the (gullible) customer, not just in audio, for any salesman wanting to make a huge profit.

 
I speak of the electronics of an amp, and how higher quality components convey an audio signal more cleanly than a cheaper one, THIS CAN BE MEASURED WITH A VOLTAGE MEASURE...NOT WITH EARS.

 

[rsaavedra]

I'm the one advocating truth.

Well, hard to find anyone who would say otherwise, isn't it? Sorry but from your comments, it's clear you are not particular familiar with critical thinking, or cognitive biases, or self-delusion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

You are just trying to have people believe what you say, and that's ok. Pretty much absolutely everyone is involved in that same endeavor, having others believe what they say or believe. But I'm advocating a bit of skepticism, which is different from simply saying "Oh I know what I'm saying, so believe what I say" (<== ahem, your approach.)

 

[rsaavedra]

For anyone interested in learning about blind tests:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_experiment

 

[castleofargh]

  People seem to want to dis-believe the notion of higher price for better sound, but it is reality...
You have to pay more for a better car, pay more for a better house and so on...

caricatures are just that, one way or the other.
each time I read something like this, I think about the ultrasone edition 10. total crap, subjectively and objectively, but the price !!!! oh my what a great reassuring price.
 
 
money can certainly be a factor, but it's silly to expect a direct relation between money and quality. if I make a headphone by hand in my bathroom, it will be crap, but it will take me probably 2 or 3 days of work to make one piece, so if I want to pay myself + parts, the headphone can't cost 100$, I have no other choice but to make it expensive to make a living out of my business model. some factory could probably make 200 of the same headphones a day, and sell it for 100$ while still making a profit.