A better OPAMP or a better ... "design"?

Jun 6, 2005 at 2:40 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 22

Cyrilix

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I've been reading about alot of types of amps, and one of the things I see on the specs is which opamp it is, whether it be OPA8610, OPA8620, OPA227, OPA132, OPA134, etc. Some are more expensive, some are less expensive, and I guess, some sound better while others don't sound as good.

But then, there is also another factor. There is all this stuff about: CMoy, MINT, Meta42, Pimeta, Gilmore Lite, PPA, PPAv2, Pocket Amp 2, Dynahi, etc. What is that really and what does it tell you? I think they are how the PCB is laid out, but are there specific layouts that are definitely better than other layouts?
 
Jun 6, 2005 at 3:05 AM Post #2 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrilix
I've been reading about alot of types of amps, and one of the things I see on the specs is which opamp it is, whether it be OPA8610, OPA8620, OPA227, OPA132, OPA134, etc. Some are more expensive, some are less expensive, and I guess, some sound better while others don't sound as good.

But then, there is also another factor. There is all this stuff about: CMoy, MINT, Meta42, Pimeta, Gilmore Lite, PPA, PPAv2, Pocket Amp 2, Dynahi, etc. What is that really and what does it tell you? I think they are how the PCB is laid out, but are there specific layouts that are definitely better than other layouts?



Now the collection of amps your listing here are not all built the same. For example, CMoy's are opamp based amplifiers that can be driven using battery power whereas amps like Gilmore lite, Dynahi are transistor-based amplifiers that do not use opamps to amplify audio. And the PCB layout of the boards don't have that much to do with whether one is better than the other. For different types of amps, they have different layouts, which only shows the circuit diagram of that particular amp.

Now if your considering the different types of opamps, you would be looking for opamps with specific features like signal/noise ratio, total harmonic distortion, system bandwidth and linearity, etc. Those specs will determine the cost of an opamp.

BTW, you might want to check out the DIY section for more details about these amps.
 
Jun 6, 2005 at 3:16 AM Post #3 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by grasshpr
Now the collection of amps your listing here are not all built the same. For example, CMoy's are opamp based amplifiers that can be driven using battery power whereas amps like Gilmore lite, Dynahi are transistor-based amplifiers that do not use opamps to amplify audio. And the PCB layout of the boards don't have that much to do with whether one is better than the other. For different types of amps, they have different layouts, which only shows the circuit diagram of that particular amp.

Now if your considering the different types of opamps, you would be looking for opamps with specific features like signal/noise ratio, total harmonic distortion, system bandwidth and linearity, etc. Those specs will determine the cost of an opamp.

BTW, you might want to check out the DIY section for more details about these amps.



So the Gilmore Lite and the Dynahi would not be opamp...does that mean that essentially instead of choosing from a variety of opamps like in my above list, you choose from a variety of resistors (and is that supposed to be better)?

And what about the M^3?
 
Jun 6, 2005 at 3:26 AM Post #4 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrilix
So the Gilmore Lite and the Dynahi would not be opamp...does that mean that essentially instead of choosing from a variety of opamps like in my above list, you choose from a variety of resistors (and is that supposed to be better)?

And what about the M^3?



Not really. Amps like Gilmore lite or the dynahi are amps that utilize transistors (similar to the material in you computer's CPU) to boost the audio signal instead of using opamps. Both opamp amplifiers and transistor based amps use capacitors, resistors and other components so you can't really determine the differences based on those components. What does make them different (which is another topic of debate) consists of the type of noise that the amps generates, how it sounds for various headphones, to name a few. This topic is quite subjective and would probably be better addressed by the experts who have heard each type of amp for their particular set of headphones.

Also, I'm not very familiar with M^3 amps. I think they are transistor-based amps using a specific type of transistor called MOSFET's, but again, you can read more about them in the DIY section.
 
Jun 6, 2005 at 3:27 AM Post #5 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by grasshpr
Not really. Amps like Gilmore lite or the dynahi are amps that utilize transistors (similar to the material in you computer's CPU) to boost the audio signal instead of using opamps. Both opamp amplifiers and transistor based amps use capacitors, resistors and other components so you can't really determine the differences based on those components. What does make them different (which is another topic of debate) consists of the type of noise that the amps generates, how it sounds for various headphones, to name a few. This topic is quite subjective and would probably be better addressed by the experts who have heard each type of amp for their particular set of headphones.

Also, I'm not very familiar with M^3 amps. I think they are transistor-based amps using a specific type of transistor called MOSFET's, but again, you can read more about them in the DIY section.



Alright, thanks for the info. I'll be sure to read the stuff in the DIY sticky.

Edit: and oops, in my last post, I meant to say transistors, but for some reason I said resistors. =/
 
Jun 6, 2005 at 3:33 AM Post #6 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrilix
Alright, thanks for the info. I'll be sure to read the stuff in the DIY sticky.

Edit: and oops, in my last post, I meant to say transistors, but for some reason I said resistors. =/



Good luck reading. BTW, I've built a dynalo (which essentially is a Gilmore lite) so I can comment on its effectiveness. This amp is a great transistor based amp which can drive almost any type of headphone (I've used it with grado SR80's, AKG K501's, and senn's HD600) and all of them greatly improve sound from my DAC compared with it unamped.
 
Jun 6, 2005 at 3:35 AM Post #7 of 22
With transistor based amps like the Dynahi and Gilmore lite you can't really change the sound.

The M3 has an opamp gain stage with mosfet output stage. You can change the opamp to whatever you want.
 
Jun 6, 2005 at 3:38 AM Post #8 of 22
Sorry bg4533, your right! I meant to say it brings out the characteristics of the headphone and not the actual sound from the DAC. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Jun 6, 2005 at 3:45 AM Post #9 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by bg4533
With transistor based amps like the Dynahi and Gilmore lite you can't really change the sound.

The M3 has an opamp gain stage with mosfet output stage. You can change the opamp to whatever you want.



Oh, so while opamps change the sound of the headphone, transistor-based amps simply make it louder...or make it sound more like how the headphone should sound (I'm not sure how to put it)?
 
Jun 6, 2005 at 4:46 AM Post #10 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrilix
Oh, so while opamps change the sound of the headphone, transistor-based amps simply make it louder...or make it sound more like how the headphone should sound (I'm not sure how to put it)?


nope. opamps are a collection of transistors rolled into a single chip. any amplifier design will change the sound of the music. better amps do so to a lesser degree. a design with opamp A, a design with opamp B, and a design with no opamps will all sound different, but it is up to you to decide what is better.

and no, amps do not just "make things louder" though they can have that effect (as can a volume knob) they are used to supply a greater current to drive the headphones and therefore make the sound better, not just louder.
 
Jun 6, 2005 at 1:12 PM Post #11 of 22
A major factor influencing the sound is how much 'reserve power' or current can pass through the amp. Increasing the voltage gain is pretty easy to do with an opamp, but the opamp is so compact (whole amp on a little chip!) that it usually doesn't have that much available current to output.

Designs that use discrete (or separate and individual) transistors like the Gilmore amps, are able to deliver much more current because parts are bigger (the individual transistors are larger and spaced out) so they can heat up more when more current passes through them.

Opamps are nice because all the transistors are on one circuit and supposedly matched almost perftect - whereas discrete amps need some care in the building process to match the transistors and some effort must be made to decrease the output offset.

The M3 is a bit of a hybird design: it uses opamps to boost the voltage, and then a 2nd stage of discrete transistors for boosting the current.
 
Jun 6, 2005 at 1:19 PM Post #12 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by chillysalsa
A major factor influencing the sound is how much 'reserve power' or current can pass through the amp. Increasing the voltage gain is pretty easy to do with an opamp, but the opamp is so compact (whole amp on a little chip!) that it usually doesn't have that much available current to output.

Designs that use discrete (or separate and individual) transistors like the Gilmore amps, are able to deliver much more current because parts are bigger (the individual transistors are larger and spaced out) so they can heat up more when more current passes through them.



Actually, the current supplied by the opamp is primarily dependent on the power supply your using to power it up, whereas transistors can only supply current within some operating range of your design. One of the major difference is that opamps don't have the same high fidelity THD as using discrete transistors.
 
Jun 6, 2005 at 6:17 PM Post #13 of 22
There are different opamps, yes, and there are different circuits. All the [solid state] circuits that aren't designed by Kevin Gilmore—and are also discussed on this forum—use opamps (though not all allow for opamp rolling). Some circuits are better than others, yes. Basically, the way it works is, no circuit element is perfect. If they were, then you wouldn't need an amp. A pot would do just fine. (Actually... some audiophiles just use a pot for their "preamp", and they call it a "passive preamp" even though it isn't a preamp at all...). The better circuits are ones that account for non-idealities better. Hmm... I'm not the best person to explain this stuff, but since this isn't in the DIY forum, here goes...

So you start with the cmoy. It's got an input buffer in the form of a cap, and a totally unbuffered output. But it sounds ok for the price: it's hella better than the output of most portable electronics.

Next step up is the mint (for simplicity, I'm going to stick what's on Tangent's website; also, I'm going to totally ignore the powersupply sections, which is pretty stupid, I admit, but I don't understand that stuff nearly as well). It uses—like the cmoy—a dual-channel opamp and has a cap on the input, but there are a couple big improvements. First, you can buffer the opamp into Class A with a CRD, and second, there's a BUF634 current buffer on the output. Tangent has a decent description of what Class A biasing is, and why you want it, so I suggest you read that if you want to know more. The latter enhancement fixes the fact that opamps are crappy current sources. Yes, grasshpr, they suck as current sources, which is why every amp over $100 has some sort of current buffer between the opamp and the output.

The pimeta can use a JFET cascode to bias the opamps into Class A and has a slightly more interesting input stage. But the most important thing (aside from the powersupply, which looks somewhat more beefy) is that it has an active ground. It's a more symmetric design in that, usually the ground just sits there, but in the pimeta (and the PPA), it can push current back through whatever it's driving. That's fine for passive loads (like headphones), but apparently it oughtn't to be used as a preamp.

The PPA seems to benefit from a much, much beefier powersupply, and optional "aftermarket" buffers (oh, and it uses single-channel opamps, unlike the previous amps). Standard on the PPAv1 are Intersil buffers (up to four of them), but most people seem to agree that the biggest upgrade one can get for it is a discrete output stage (that uses transistors!).

The M³ is based on the PPA, but makes some significant changes, the most obvious of which (to me, anyway...) is the use of MOSFETs on the output.

Opamps can change the sound, but they're victim to any limitations of the circuit you're using. Opamps can also put constraints on the design (some aren't stable at low gain; others need lots of voltage or they'll clip). Opamps vary in price, yes, but the big part of the price is going to be set by the circuit, so your purchase should be dictated by circuit design more than what opamp it comes with. As they say in realestate, you can fix your house, but you can't fix your location.

Then—after you have the amp in hand—you can start opamp rolling to see which sounds the best in your rig. This assumes that the opamps are socketed, of course. Or you can design it from the ground up for a particular opamp, but ... well, I think that's overboard, personally. I hope that was useful to someone... though it's probably riddled with half-truths and outright wrongnesses.
 
Jun 6, 2005 at 6:22 PM Post #14 of 22
I liked it! Good job Shimage.
 
Jun 6, 2005 at 6:45 PM Post #15 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by videocrew
and no, amps do not just "make things louder"


Actually, the best amp would do just that... if you need your amp to colour the sound of your rig the problem lies elsewhere in either the source or the headphones/speakers. Quote:

Originally Posted by videocrew
they are used to supply a greater current to drive the headphones


Ok, you redeemed yourself with the second half of the sentence.
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It is my understanding that depending on the headphones you will need more current or more voltage or both. An amp that can put out both in high supply without introducing any distortion is the ideal I would think.

So I would say the perfect amp is one that can 'make things louder' with ease. And by 'things' I mean any dynamic headphone in existence. And by 'make... ...louder' I mean a controlled increase in volume, where the output is exactly equal to the input once you account for the gain.

I'm pretty sure that such an amp is impossible... but the Dynahi comes pretty damn close.
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