[plainsong]

Ok, I'm reading horror stories on Apple's on discussion board (before they get censored), as well as iPodlounge, so I'd like some input from any Euro ipod owners here -

Just how bad is the dreaded volume cap? Is there any truth to the claims that sound quality is distorted and that there is clipping even at low volumes? Is the Euro iPod still able to drive portable headphones to decent volumes with good quality?

I had sold my old ipod to get a new one, but this is really sucking. If I buy one from the US, I'm going to have to pay over 130 Euros in customs fees. That and the stress that if something goes wrong, I'm screwed.

I'm so angry at Apple for this right now. In fact the name Apple fills me with hate. Why would they stick their middle finger out to Euro customers just because they don't like some French laws?

As for other mp3 players, I'm on a Mac so I'm pretty well boxed in. The only other mp3 player that looks interesting is the iRiver, and that's only 10gb and costs more than the ipod.

So Euro-headfiers, what's the verdict on the new ipod?

Thanks,

Plainsong

 

[Clutz]

Quote:

Originally posted by plainsong I'm so angry at Apple for this right now. In fact the name Apple fills me with hate. Why would they stick their middle finger out to Euro customers just because they don't like some French laws?

This issue has been discussed a bit already, and as I understand it - it's not that Apple doesn't like some French laws, it's that if they do not follow the french laws, they could be fined for every iPod that is sold in France that does not conform to French law. I may be bastardizing that a bit, but that's the general sense that I've gained from reading the discussions. Step back from your disappointment with the performance of the iPod for a second. Apple must know people in europe are unhappy with the volume cap which is probably hurting their sales. Do you really believe that Apple is just only selling a current model because that's the most convinient to do? Apple has a relatively small customer base when it comes to computers, so they've got to be pretty experienced with keeping customers returning to their products, instead of competitors. Given that, do you really think that Apple would only produce a single variant of the iPod for Europe, if it felt it had any legal way of doing so, even if it did hurt their profit margin on each iPod slightly? Probably not, because a small reduction in their profit by creating a French iPod, and a non-French Euro-iPod that might be caused by a reduction in the length of their production lines would easily be swamped out by the value of repeat customers.

It just doesn't make any sense that apple would do this, just because it is easier, or it maximizes profit per unit by a small amount over the short term.

That being said, I suppose the logical counter-argument is that Apple isn't very well manged. I cannot counter that, I'm not in business management. It just doesn't make sense to me that Apple would piss off a huge possible number of, not only iPod consumers, but potential customers of their computers as well, for the sake of convinience.

 

[Peddler]

Apple could have overcome this by making the CAP a simple software patch which their French customers could have overcome if they so wish with a software download (from the States).

This is basically lazyness on Apple's part - because one European country has piss-poor politicians which make bad rules they label all of us Eurotrash.

What really pisses me off is that Apple appear to have made this cap irriversable - the only solution is to get an IPOD from the States.

I'm pleased I managed to get a 20gb 2nd gen IPOD (American) whilst they're still around - when this one goes it looks like it would have to be the Zen or back to my trusty Jukebox 3 again.

It's not Apple's fault that this stupid law is there but it is their fault that they didn't treat it with contempt and make it easy to change - there's lots of people hoping that someone can come up with a fix but I have a feeling it's not going to happen.

BTW - my IPOD can drive KSC-35's to fairly high levels and totally blow my brains out when used with the Ety 4P's.

 

[plainsong]

I love it when people vilify Microsoft but defend Apple for pulling the same or worse on their customers...

They shoulda made this a software patch, and putting in the rom of all Euro customers is just like telling us to p*ss off. I'm sure they're loosing sales. Good, lesson hopefully learned.

But anyway, I guess I need to find a graymarket iPod. Yeah my first gen 10gb iPod was fine, stupidly I thought selling it and getting a new one was upgrading or at least sidegrading.

 

[bangraman]

I was chatting about this very topic with Duncan today. The new iPod definitely doesn't output 30mw per channel into the impedance of their earphones. If the amp is capped to output less power via the headphone out, the battery life for the European iPod should be a lot more than the US version. It is not.
It might then be logical to assume that the cap limits you to a certain volume but having power in reserve, the capped iPod provides additional dynamic headroom even at the lower db level. It doesn't. I think it's not a firmware issue.


I believe that the figures are incorrect, measured strangely or something else. I also believe that the battery is smaller on the newer iPods and that the output stage is different on ALL new iPods in order to maximise power management.
If the published specs are correct, the iPod should drive even my PXC250 to almost deafening levels. It doesn't do that, but it's not unacceptably quiet either. I'm thinking from my general experience (no formal measurements made) that the real output is about 10mw/channel into 32 ohms. Do I hear iRiver users complaining frequently about volume? No.


The sound is very good when the EQ remains off. With an efficient pair of phones like the HD25-1, I have no complaints about the sound quality or volume level at all. With the EQ applied, it's a bit of a gamble, though with the headphones I use there's no need to use EQ.
It's not to say that it has been a trouble free experience for me. I have other problems with the design and function of the iPod. But these are fairly minor and Apple is about to deal with it for me. I have asked them to deal with the claimed power versus real life gap. It would be definitely useful if it could be realised, but in real life (especially with the shipped earphones) I don't really see a need for more power unless you are on a mission to deafen yourself quickly.


If you are having problems with the iPod volume, I would recommend the HD25-1 as a way to realise an improvement in sound quality and deal with the volume problem at the same time. These are extremely efficient, seem to have much less of a current requirement in order to create a bassy sound than e.g. a Grato, are very sealed and provide good sound. And if you do decide to get one, remember that the red tag is the right side...

 

[plainsong]

There's always the Archos... interesting. I thought I was boxed into one choice.

 

[Peddler]

Well I'm selling a Nomad Jukebox 3 if anyone's interested.

I find it hard to believe that there are two different Ipod's on the market - a European version and the rest of the world version - surely this must be something which is done in software or firmware but I would have also thought that, if that's the case, some bright spark must have figured it out by now.

Apparently Apple's stance on this is basically "tough **** - should have lived in the States.

If anyone's interested in the Jukebox (which by the way is not capped in France and is easily as loud as the original Ipod's) drop me a PM and let me know.

 

[Clutz]

Quote:

Originally posted by Peddler Apple could have overcome this by making the CAP a simple software patch which their French customers could have overcome if they so wish with a software download (from the States).

They could have, but if the point was to make an iPod that doesn't violate French laws by somehow limiting the output volume, then making an iPod which could be easily modified via a software patch would sort of defeat the point. For example: if you have a lot of dangerous equipment in your backyard, you have a responsibility to safely secure it so that people whom are not supposed to be able to access it, cannot access it. If someone were able to break in and hurt themselves, or someone else using your equipment, you could be successfully sued, if it can be demonstrated that you did not place adequate precautions in place to prevent people from hurting themselves in the first place. I know that things like this have happened both in Canada and the United States. Hence, if they made the European iPod easy to modify to violate French law, they could be leaving themselves open, in a similar fashion. It's just a hypothesis.

Quote:

This is basically lazyness on Apple's part - because one European country has piss-poor politicians which make bad rules they label all of us Eurotrash.

Except there is no reason for Apple to be lazy. They're already producing a non-volume capped version (the US version), so if it really was as simple as only sell the volume capped versions to France, and the non-capped versions everywhere else - they could just sell the US version everywhere else.

Quote:

What really pisses me off is that Apple appear to have made this cap irriversable - the only solution is to get an IPOD from the States.

That would seem to be the point, put a volume cap in place that people cannot easily be worked around. If they allowed for an easy work around, it would sort of nullify the French law.

 

[plainsong]

Quote:

Originally posted by bangraman The sound is very good when the EQ remains off. With an efficient pair of phones like the HD25-1, I have no complaints about the sound quality or volume level at all. With the EQ applied, it's a bit of a gamble, though with the headphones I use there's no need to use EQ.

I was hoping you'd chime in. This is the kind of answer I was looking for. Looks like I'm back on the iPod bandwagon - volume cap sucks but I never got far past the middle level anyway, and I never used that horrible eq. Whew! I was dreading that Archos.

 

[Dweebgal]

i'm starting to love my old school 10-gigger more and more

 

[Clutz]

Quote:

Originally posted by plainsong I love it when people vilify Microsoft but defend Apple for pulling the same or worse on their customers...

For the record, I frequently defend Microsoft products, my basic argument being in the absence of Microsoft, software development for the PC, and arguably the PC's development itself, would have been slowed. Anyway, I don't see how Apple putting a legally mandated volume limit on their iPods qualifies as "pulling the same or worse on their customers". Until recently, there were very few operating system alternatives to Windows for the majority of Intel-based PC owners. Microsoft had a virtual monopoly on the market, so one could make the argument (and I'm not) that it was not in Microsoft's best interest to spend a lot of resources getting rid of all of the bugs, because they would affect relatively few people, and those people didn't have any real alternatives anyway. (My argument would go something along the lines of: Unlike Apple computers, where there are relatively few variety of parts used in the computer, Microsoft's operating systems has to be able to work with all PC vendor hardware, despite the fact that PC hardware makers frequently do have their hardware quite up to spec.)

In this case Apple has competition for it's iPod, so releasing a crappier product to Europe (which is after all, a larger market than the United States), would see to be an extremely stupid move, if they had any better alternatives.

Quote:

They shoulda made this a software patch, and putting in the rom of all Euro customers is just like telling us to p*ss off. I'm sure they're loosing sales. Good, lesson hopefully learned.

Except that the entire point of making the European version of the iPod, is so that the volume limit cannot be raised and violate French law.... so doing that would sort of defeat the point.

 

[Clutz]

Quote:

Originally posted by bangraman I'm thinking from my general experience (no formal measurements made) that the real output is about 10mw/channel into 32 ohms.

There has got to be a way of testing this directly, doesn't there? Couldn't someone wire the left (or right) channel of the iPod at Max to a VOM running in AC mode, and then measure it's current and voltage across a 32 ohm load..?