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3D60 sound - what do you think?

  1. 74promotions
    Nothing to do with convenience, just the truth.
    You're remarkably confident LFF for someone who is plainly wrong I'm afraid. Look, it makes no odds really to me whether you believe it or not, I'm just really trying to be helpful as someone with an interest / some knowledge about the people involved in the project who has got a little frustrated by people saying "it's just binaural". If it was binaural, do you not think the guys would pass it off as such (there was an article in the Independent recently about a guy who was "relaunching" binaural through an Apple App and also audiobooks) - why would 3D60 not do that ? If it was just binaural, which as you correctly say, is an old technique, it would be a little embarrassing to say it's not and then be shown it is wouldn't it ? Not worth the risk! 
    It is also not a technique that uses a dummy head either. That's one way it can be recorded, but it isn't the technique used.
    I'll give you a scenario that may just blow your mind LFF. I'm sure by your confidence that this doesn't happen too often, but maybe, just maybe you're wrong and someone has developed something you haven't got a grip of yet ? Try that one out......it might be very liberating.
  2. LFF


    I understand but offering no explanation isn't really being helpful, especially to a community who might be a potential customer. If it's so frustrating that people call it just binaural then please enlighten us as to why it is not "just binaural". I, as well as other here, would love to learn.
    I have seen it time and time again. Someone learns about the wonderful world of true "3D" audio either through dummy heads or minimalist stereo microphone placement and then they try to pass it off as something new and totally unique by calling it something new or using some new microphone housing or an inventive explanation. Using HRTF's doesn't count either as it's not really "true" 3D audio. Even Zuccarelli claimed his holophonic system was new and unique in that it mimicked the human ear by emitting tones that we can't hear, when in reality, it was just a carefully crafted dummy head.

    I can honestly admit that I have been wrong many times before. Just recently I was sure I heard an AMAZING dummy head recording from a well known label. I asked about it and instead of being met with excuses like "Top Secret", "NDA's are in place", "Trade Secret", "Still in Development", etc kind of bull crap, the actual owner and engineer described to me how 1) I was wrong in my assumption that it was a dummy head and 2) how he managed to get that type of enveloping yet natural sound and 3) why his technique was slightly unique. Even with his detailed explanation, I am quite sure I couldn't get his results nor am I really interested in getting them. My goal is simply to understand how it was done. As a result of his courteous and prompt reply, I will be recommending his recordings to many friends and have already placed a couple of orders for his recordings.
    My confidence doesn't come from always being right but rather from a lack of fear of being wrong. When I don't know something, I ask....
    Ok...so I am WRONG....let's see what the website says...
    "Our new production process creates an immersive personal listening experience - and with 'above' and 'below' dimensions...."
    Sounds like a dummy head or holophonic microphone to me as both those "systems" can create an enveloping personal listening experience with horizontal and vertical information. Minimalist binaural can sometimes do the same if carefully recorded.
    "It's not a plug-in or hardware, but a whole new approach to creating true 3D sound. 3D60™ is fully compatible with all audio playback formats."
    Ok. So it's not like the Longcat H3D or something using HRTF's or impulse responses since it is not a plug-in. Not hardware...so then it must be done at the source with specialty microphones/equipment - like minimalist binaural, dummy head and holophonic microphones. Minimalist binaural, dummy head and holophonic recordings are also fully compatible with all audio playback formats.
    "All you need to listen is any pair of stereo headphones."
    Hmmm, once again, with minimalist binaural, dummy head and holophonic recordings all you need is a pair of stereo headphones....
    If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.......
    Are you now going to add video to the 3D audio and call it something new and revolutionary in multimedia entertainment? I bet you are and just to help you out... the name ImmersAV is already taken. [​IMG]
    Regardless, I fail to see what is new and unique about this technology.
  3. 74promotions
    No, fair enough, I do take your point and your technical knowledge is far greater than mine on these techniques. My frustration, like yours, is born of people saying "oh it's just this / that" when my information is that it is actually different.
    I'll endeavour to find out to a reasonable level what the process involves, whilst of course also respecting the natural reticence the developers have to "reveal all" - after all, as a new development that you can't realistically patent, there is a fear that the Dolby's of the world will snap it up for 5.1 / 7.1 etc, so I hope you can understand there does need to be a veil of secrecy to some level. I will commit to speaking with the guys to get you some better explanation though. 
    I completely understand why it's annoying for you that I'm not able to provide a definitive answer, but then I hope you can see my side of the coin, and that of the developers too.
  4. LFF


    I understand your side of the coin perfectly as I am very secretive about certain mastering methodologies which, as far as I know, only I use.
    Dolby already has this type of technology as well, which, surprise...surprise...they claim is something new and unique. You can hear some of  this in a small film called "Dolby Man" featuring a beatboxer named Beardyman on youtube. If you listen carefully, it sounds like it is either a minimalist binaural, dummy head or holophonic microphone or a combination of all three. Many "real 3D" recordings are produced with a combination of these three techniques where one will be used for the mains and the others are used for the other surrounds. With a little creative mixing it's extremely easy to turn a holophonic 2.0 recording into a 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound presentation.
    Anyway, I look forward to discussing this further with you and learning anything new about the subject.
  5. 74promotions
    Am aware of that video and I know Beardyman very well ! From memory there's no spatial height and depth with the Dolby product though ?
  6. LFF


    There is very little depth information in that youtube video and no vertical information. However, I recall hearing a demo that did contain both under the "dolby headphone" moniker. It billed it as a "new" revolution in headphone technology but it sounded like binaural with some added/mixed in effects.
  7. sari0n
    lol, anyone think 3d60 is a really cool name?  I think it's sort of clever =P
    I enjoyed stuff like the virtual barbership a lot, I wish they would make more of those clips.
  8. Room Tone
    Okay, so basically we have two pages of bickering over terminology and whether this technique is novel or just a brand name for yet-another-binaural-recording-technique. Fine. Who cares? It may be proprietary, but as mentioned little is shared in the sense of technical information. Since it's been stale for over half a decade now, I thought I'd see where it's gone. Based on what I can hear, it was using novel equalization that is more convincing than your standard Neumann head.

    I'm listening* to "John McLaughlin (3D60 Headphone Mix) - Agemo Disc 1" by Rare Noise Records.

    The soundstage is great. Far more convincingly spherical immersion than I'm used to with standard Binaural recordings. For example, the Neumann head recordings by the Jorge Mester conducting the Pasadena Symphony lack the convincing phase relationships of the one above. However, the treble feels less than fully resolved in the "3D60" recording, like the sound has a Gaussian blur.

    The one thing I notice immediately is how un-fatiguing it is. Enjoyable stuff.

    * System is fully balanced end-to-end starting with an R-2R resistor ladder DAC feeding a high-current solid state amp and a very neutral set of planar-dynamics.

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