24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!
Jan 7, 2020 at 8:06 PM Post #5,551 of 7,175
A good part of my career has been spend in broadcasting where there is a very
aggressive version of remastering processing going on in the final processor
before transmission.

And that sound is exactly what it seems modern popular mastering - at the request of the client, or the mastering engineer's personal technique or style - is after. While listening to NY City's Z-100 CHR FM station, Adele's 'ROLLING IN THE DEEP' came on. I quickly got up, grabbed my '21' CD, and put it in the carousel. Sure enough, that same song playing from my CD sounded *almost* as loud as it did when switching between it playing on the radio station and on my CD deck. This experience recalls an anecdotal tale I recall from the early 1980s, when Carly Simon referenced that same Z-100 station in a conversation with her engineer about how she wanted her then current album project to sound. Not a good role model I think - a major metro Contemporary Hits Radio outlet, that is!
 
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Jan 7, 2020 at 8:30 PM Post #5,552 of 7,175
And that sound is exactly what it seems modern popular mastering - at the request of the client, or the mastering engineer's personal technique or style - is after. While listening to NY City's Z-100 CHR FM station, Adele's 'ROLLING IN THE DEEP' came on. I quickly got up, grabbed my '21' CD, and put it in the carousel. Sure enough, that same song playing from my CD sounded *almost* as loud as it did when switching between it playing on the radio station and on my CD deck. This experience recalls an anecdotal tale I recall from the early 1980s, when Carly Simon referenced that same Z-100 station in a conversation with her engineer regarding how she wanted her then current album project to sound. Not a good role model I think - a major metro Contemporary Hits Radio outlet, that is!
My compliments on attempting the comparison!

I'm not completely discounting your effort, but please recognize the flaw here. An FM station must limit "peaks of frequent recurrence" to a level defined as 100% modulation. All stations are dealing with the same rules in the US. The loudness war is a fight for the highest apparent loudness without exceeding legal maximum peak level. Competition in the market drives every station of a given music genre to attempt loudness equal or greater to it's neighbor up or down the dial. That maximum peak level is pretty hard and firm, but average or RMS loudness levels are not regulated at all.

On a CD, the maximum is also there, 0dBFS. But there's rarely an instant comparison between CDs, like pushing the preset tuning buttons on a radio. Still, it is the same war.

The problem is, we don't know what specific level 0dBFS is in any system (we just turn the volume control) and we don't know what specific level 100% FM modulation is. They come from two different devices, and are almost certainly not the same. So a direct loudness comparison is not actually possible without a LOT of setup effort. Confounding the comparison further, the station is applying a rather huge amount of its own processing to a tune that has already had loudness processing applied. Part of the station's processing chain involves dynamic equalization, which is a large part of what makes up the "signature" of the station. It's applied in multiple bands, 2 to as many as 30, but typically 5 or 6. With all of that, plus broadband compression, high frequency limiting to protect from overmodulation, peak limiting, and yes, clipping, you'll have only two distantly related results.

IF they were similar, that actually says something for the station. But it could also be accidental. More likely, the FM station will sound duller by comparison, and with less separation, unless you're listening to HD radio. Duller comes from trying to control the HF boost of pre-emphasis, which is 17.5dB @ 15kHz re: 400Hz. You don't have that on CD or HD radio. Hence the duller result on FM.

Oh, and FM has it's own kind of anti-aliasing filter between 15 and 17kHz, keeping audio away from the 19kHz pilot tone. Those filters have always been a problem all their own.
 
Jan 7, 2020 at 8:52 PM Post #5,553 of 7,175
The problem is, we don't know what specific level 0dBFS is in any system
(we just turn the volume control) and we don't know what specific level 100%
FM modulation is. They come from two different devices, and are almost
certainly not the same. So a direct loudness comparison is not actually possible
without a LOT of setup effort. C

It's not that complicated. I just listened while switching between CD and Tuner on my home system, while not touching the Volume control. And based on my own ears, 'ROLLING IN THE DEEP' on my 21 CD sounded almost as loud as it did on WHTZ 100FM. No complicated setup needed to determine that!

From a sound quality standpoint, no contest: the CD version blows away how her song sounded on FM, and to a degree on HD FM(which I think is one of the latest broadcasting gimmicks - why would I want to hear the same hyper-mastered pudding in glorious, static-free 'HD'??).
 
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Jan 7, 2020 at 8:58 PM Post #5,554 of 7,175
It's not that complicated. I just listened while switching between CD and Tuner on my home system, while not touching the Volume control. And based on my own ears, 'HELLO' on my 21 CD sounded almost as loud as it did on WHTZ 100FM. No complicated setup needed to determine that!
You missed the point entirely. Your comparison doesn't include matched gains. Without matching gains between the two, the comparison includes a form of bias. Yes, complicated setup is required. You need to establish 0dBFS through the system for the CD, and match 100% FM modulation to it within 0.1dB. The CD is easy, matching to 100% mod, not so much.

Sorry, that's life. Your ears told you something that has a built-in, unknown, uncontrolled error. The chances of accidental CD/FM gain-match are near zero.
 
Jan 7, 2020 at 9:07 PM Post #5,555 of 7,175
Sorry, that's life. Your ears told you something that has a built-in, unknown,
uncontrolled error.

You sure you aren't the White House Press Secretary? Because with the above, you dang sure sound like one! Telling me what I hear with my own two ears isn't real, or is some "mistake"?
 
Jan 7, 2020 at 9:27 PM Post #5,556 of 7,175
You sure you aren't the White House Press Secretary? Because with the above, you dang sure sound like one! Telling me what I hear with my own two ears isn't real, or is some "mistake"?
I'm confused.

Your sig says, "if someone tells you "Use your ears" - they're probably a politician...", and now you say if I tell you not to believe your ears, I'm a politician too?

So, anyone who disagrees with you is a politician? Ahem. Couldn't be farther from one.

I'm telling you the facts. If you're making a comparison between two sources, trying to detect differences or similarities, and you DON'T level match, you're going to get an erroneous answer BECAUSE you've introduced an artificial difference (level) that isn't part of the real difference you're trying to hear. But don't take my word for it, just do a bit of research on ABX/DBT. It's all there, the principles apply even if you're not doing an ABX.

Again, I applaud your attempt, it's far more than most would do. I also point out the point of entry for error.
 
Jan 8, 2020 at 12:23 AM Post #5,560 of 7,175
Why? A diplomat is better than a politician :nerd:

Wouldn't that depend on who they're trying to serve? I'm sure given today's age, there are plenty of people who question whether a diplomat is from a certain lobby.:cold_sweat:
 
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Jan 8, 2020 at 12:30 AM Post #5,561 of 7,175
Wouldn't that depend on who they're trying to serve? I'm sure given today's age, there are plenty of people who question whether a diplomat is from a certain lobby.:cold_sweat:
Hmmm, you're right, I never thought of it that way. I was referring to Pinnahertz's nice writing style rather than insinuating something else.
 
Jan 8, 2020 at 12:58 AM Post #5,562 of 7,175
Pinnahertz, one of the knives need sharpening in that drawer.
 
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Jan 8, 2020 at 1:05 AM Post #5,563 of 7,175
I'm not doubting that compression, NR, etc have always existed (and for good reasons), the point is that the original production masters would already have been mastered with it (ie compression, EQ and other 'tricks') that the original producer/artist wanted.

I'll let you in on a dirty little secret... After a decade or more, the people who made the album in the first place aren't interested in going back and revisiting it. They just want to endorse the royalty checks and let the label take care of the technical details. It may say in the liner notes that the remastering was overseen by X, Y and Z; but all that means is that they approved what was handed to them. That doesn't always mean that it is their intent. The other dirty little secret is that the first release may have been done under time and budgetary constraints that don't exist decades later. The remix or remaster may have more resources to do a better job. It all depends. Some stuff sounds great and some stuff sucks. That's the way it has always been, and it's the way it will continue to be.
 
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Jan 8, 2020 at 7:04 AM Post #5,564 of 7,175
But I'm not debating original Vs remaster on a 'which sounds better' basis.

I'm generally opposed to remastered reissues of classic pop genre(rock, rap, country, etc) because the sound of the reissued music has been changed from either what I'm used to it sounding like, or what I remember it sounding like, etc etc. It's not whether the remastered version sounds better or worse, but rather that it sounds different. I'm sorry to anyone whom I might have previously and unintentionally misled, on this point, in the past.

Then again nobody forces you to buy/listen to the remastered version. Just stick to the original.
 
Jan 8, 2020 at 11:01 AM Post #5,565 of 7,175
Then again nobody forces you to buy/listen to the remastered
version. Just stick to the original.

I'm not concerned about me - EDIT: I already possess most of what I want in some original form. END OF EDIT. I'm concerned about newer generations coming up, exploring music from my time and before. They won't have access to that 'original' sound because those sources are off the shelves in stores! Therefore, they're forced to buy(or download) the 'remastered' or remixed version because that's all that is available.

IE: The 2017 Sgt. Pepper 50th Anniv. remixes. Young Beatle fans will buy or listen to those and just assume they're the canonical, authoritative versions. They might not know, or care, that there are more authentic versions of Sgt. Pepper, and other albums, out there.
 
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