24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!
May 7, 2021 at 4:35 AM Post #6,181 of 6,480

bigshot

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You said the word I wouldn't say out loud. I think internet forums have all types of characters. Most people are quiet and just lurk and gather the info they need. Others talk. There are various reasons why people do that. Attracting attention- whatever kind of attention- is one of those.
 
May 7, 2021 at 5:03 AM Post #6,182 of 6,480

chef8489

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What's sad is I know better about 16bit vs 24bit and I still struggle at times picking a 24bit version on my qobuz subscription to listen to. I don't purchase them, just stream. Almost all my music I have purchased were 16/44.1 and usually ripped from cds.
 
May 7, 2021 at 5:08 AM Post #6,183 of 6,480

bigshot

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May 7, 2021 at 5:12 AM Post #6,184 of 6,480

chef8489

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May 7, 2021 at 5:38 AM Post #6,185 of 6,480

bigshot

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I'm posting that for the benefit of the lurkers!
 
May 7, 2021 at 5:41 AM Post #6,186 of 6,480

chef8489

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May 7, 2021 at 11:11 AM Post #6,187 of 6,480

peskypesky

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Great article.

My favorite line: "Misinformation and superstition only serve charlatans.".

My second favorite: "In any test where a listener can tell two choices apart via any means apart from listening, the results will usually be what the listener expected in advance; this is called confirmation bias and it's similar to the placebo effect. It means people 'hear' differences because of subconscious cues and preferences that have nothing to do with the audio, like preferring a more expensive (or more attractive) amplifier over a cheaper option."

And third: "It's true enough that a properly encoded Ogg file (or MP3, or AAC file) will be indistinguishable from the original at a moderate bitrate."

This article explains why in many dozens of ABX tests, I haven't been able to tell the difference between high bitrate lossy files and 24/192 FLACS.
 
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May 7, 2021 at 1:44 PM Post #6,188 of 6,480

71 dB

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I tend to agree with you. I was just reacting to the belief that it is so, so sad that some of us buy hi res music.

It is good we have some sort of agreement. Over the years I have become "softer" and I try to understand emotional and even irrational aspects of audio experience. I try to understand people into vinyl, tubes, etc. but there has to be limits so that hard science has a say on things also.

If you are ok with spending more money on hi-rez files in order to have peace of mind then that is your money and your peace of mind. It is clear peace of mind can be based on emotional and irrational aspects. For me science has given peace of mind. I am convinced I don't need hi-rez. The purpose of this sound science section is to help people to learn and get convinced of what science teaches us and have immunity against being fooled by snake oil sellers.
 
May 7, 2021 at 2:27 PM Post #6,189 of 6,480

castleofargh

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I posted a meta-analysis that found that people could hear a difference. It was dismissed over supposedly bad methodology. I posted a Consumer Reports article claiming that in their audio lab they did indeed hear a difference. I was accused of cherry picking because they *also* said that the average consumer shouldn’t bother with high res files since the difference is so minuscule and, moreover, most people don’t have that kind of audio equipment. There was another study where subjects were ABXd and two sound engineers, trained tonmeisters, scored significantly above average, and the researchers wanted to have them back for further evaluation. But that was also dismissed out of hand, even by the researchers themselves, who basically discounted it as an anomaly. They just placed a big question mark over the sound engineers who scored so well. Not that I am convinced by the meta-analysis or by Consumer Reports, but it is clear that people have made up their minds and that having even a sliver of your thinking open on the subject is not allowed. The matter has been settled and anything that goes against it clearly has to be wrong.

My last post wasn’t an argument against the settled science but a reaction to peskypesky’s characterization of his brother as a poor dupe who is afraid to ABX because he might find that he couldn’t tell the difference and would then be filled with remorse because he paid extra for hi res files. I don’t know all the specifics there, but I wonder whether his brother would agree with that characterization and what he would say in his defense. As I see it, it’s more like buying extra warranty coverage for products that will probably never require it, i.e., peace of mind. For instance, if a label records in DSD 256 and doesn’t convert the file to DXD for processing and sends a copy of the DSD 256 file to NativeDSD, that’s the one I’ll choose because it’s basically an exact copy of the master. That file might not sound any better to me than the 320kb file were I to take the time to actually compare them, but since I don’t care to take the time to compare them, and since I know that the DSD file received directly from the label is as close to the source as you can get, that’s the one I choose. I don’t have to worry about it being converted, degraded, or manipulated in some way. If you don’t see the point in that, fine. But why call somebody else a dupe when possibly all they want is peace of mind that they’re getting the best product available
I might fuel an unnecessary fire but I prefer this type of post, to claims of definitive and universal inaudibility(or audibility).
Most of the regulars know about the references you mentioned, they exist. To me, it's a reasonable argument, so I thought I should support the effort, even if I’m not a big supporter of hires or DSD(aarrrrghhhhh) myself.


On the other hand it's a topic about bit depth, not ultrasounds. Seems like I’ll never manage to keep them apart for more than a few pages. :sob:
 
May 7, 2021 at 2:58 PM Post #6,190 of 6,480

bigshot

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More is not always better. Sometimes it's just more.
 
May 7, 2021 at 9:25 PM Post #6,191 of 6,480

Brahmsian

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I don't have a balloon that can be popped, just as I don't have a tail to tuck between my legs. However, it's true that I've left here disgusted at the hostility of some on this thread. They're like chimps trying to rip off the face of anyone who enters their territory. But some of those same people have been very nice on other occasions, so I don't draw any conclusions.

As for the placebo illusion, people often imaginatively enhance their experiences. When you read a novel, your imagination fleshes out the picture beyond the words on the page. Children imagine that their action figures can kick some serious butt even while knowing that the figures aren't alive; the toy is just something their imagination can act upon. The power of the imagination to enhance one's experience is real, and the pleasure derived from it is real, which is one reason why people don't want to give up their illusions. I remain agnostic on the matter. But being agnostic is not good enough; you're expected to either toe the line or not make a peep. There are totalitarian states that have more freedom of speech than this thread.

Especially in the classical music realm, labels are recording and issuing their music in DXD and DSD 256, and the end product often sounds superb. Whether recording in DXD and DSD 256 is incidental to the great sound or not, the fact that their recordings are outstanding is something audio enthusiasts should celebrate. Forget about the so-called golden age of recording in the past; this is the Golden Age. If you like classical music, check out some of the work that Reference Recordings has been doing. Simply superb!

Carry on.
 
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May 7, 2021 at 10:23 PM Post #6,192 of 6,480

bigshot

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Man! So many words to say that you don’t want to be here. When you start off with chimps eating faces, I’m not going to bother reading any further. I dismiss that kind of thing with a wave of my hand.
 
May 8, 2021 at 3:12 AM Post #6,193 of 6,480

71 dB

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I don't have a balloon that can be popped, just as I don't have a tail to tuck between my legs. However, it's true that I've left here disgusted at the hostility of some on this thread. They're like chimps trying to rip off the face of anyone who enters their territory. But some of those same people have been very nice on other occasions, so I don't draw any conclusions.

As for the placebo illusion, people often imaginatively enhance their experiences. When you read a novel, your imagination fleshes out the picture beyond the words on the page. Children imagine that their action figures can kick some serious butt even while knowing that the figures aren't alive; the toy is just something their imagination can act upon. The power of the imagination to enhance one's experience is real, and the pleasure derived from it is real, which is one reason why people don't want to give up their illusions. I remain agnostic on the matter. But being agnostic is not good enough; you're expected to either toe the line or not make a peep. There are totalitarian states that have more freedom of speech than this thread.

Especially in the classical music realm, labels are recording and issuing their music in DXD and DSD 256, and the end product often sounds superb. Whether recording in DXD and DSD 256 is incidental to the great sound or not, the fact that their recordings are outstanding is something audio enthusiasts should celebrate. Forget about the so-called golden age of recording in the past; this is the Golden Age. If you like classical music, check out some of the work that Reference Recordings has been doing. Simply superb!

Carry on.
Respecting other people is always a good thing, but respect doesn't mean respecting poor opinions. As you say yourself, people here have been nice to you on other occacions. That shows that people do respect others here, but not every single opinion of every single person is respected. People may not show respect to your opinions about hi-rez (because they are not very 'suitable' for this section of this discussion board), but the same people may respect your opinions about classical music for example. Perhaps you are the undeniable Brahms-guru around? We just aren't talking about Brahms' symphonies here so that hasn't come up.

If you want imagination enhance your experience that's fine, but this is not really the place for doing that. This is the place were you get to know if the tooth fairy really exists so children who want to keep believing in the tooth fairy better stay away! Your freedom of speech isn't being violated unless the moderators have removed or edited your posts. Even if they have done that, it is totally normal that discussion boards have their specific rules about what is allowed and what is not. We are not allowed to discuss politics here for example. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from being criticized or being given counter-arguments. You get to present your views and others get to comment on them. Freedom of speech doesn't mean others have to just accept and agree with any opinion no matter how factually wrong it is.

I do agree about that modern recordings can be stunning, but it isn't because of extreme bitrates or bitstream technology. You can make stunning recordings at 44.1 kHz PCM. 24 bits gives flexibility and safety margin in the music production, but for consumers of music the final product can be easily fitted into 16 bit format, because about 13 bits is enough.
 
May 8, 2021 at 6:37 AM Post #6,194 of 6,480

castleofargh

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I don't have a balloon that can be popped, just as I don't have a tail to tuck between my legs. However, it's true that I've left here disgusted at the hostility of some on this thread. They're like chimps trying to rip off the face of anyone who enters their territory. But some of those same people have been very nice on other occasions, so I don't draw any conclusions.

As for the placebo illusion, people often imaginatively enhance their experiences. When you read a novel, your imagination fleshes out the picture beyond the words on the page. Children imagine that their action figures can kick some serious butt even while knowing that the figures aren't alive; the toy is just something their imagination can act upon. The power of the imagination to enhance one's experience is real, and the pleasure derived from it is real, which is one reason why people don't want to give up their illusions. I remain agnostic on the matter. But being agnostic is not good enough; you're expected to either toe the line or not make a peep. There are totalitarian states that have more freedom of speech than this thread.

Especially in the classical music realm, labels are recording and issuing their music in DXD and DSD 256, and the end product often sounds superb. Whether recording in DXD and DSD 256 is incidental to the great sound or not, the fact that their recordings are outstanding is something audio enthusiasts should celebrate. Forget about the so-called golden age of recording in the past; this is the Golden Age. If you like classical music, check out some of the work that Reference Recordings has been doing. Simply superb!

Carry on.
There is, or at least there should be a clear line between statements of objective facts and opinions/impressions.
That line when it comes to objective facts should indeed remain strictly defined and what can be said about those facts should clearly be stated as opinions or hypotheses in the absence of clear demonstration. I believe that anybody and any place doing it differently is wrong and potentially dangerous to somebody(so... everywhere...).
Now, many people will write claims while not really thinking about it, or while having very peculiar ideas about what constitutes proof of an event. Like most people thinking, ”I heard it, what more proof can I need?”
And yes we also have it happen the other way around, when reacting to an opinion as if it was an objective claim. Your last posts were carefully written but were no doubt read by some as claims about hires or whatever else. It will happen, we're humans and we all interpret massively. Plus, English isn't everybody's native language. I hope that I can use that as an excuse next time I jump on somebody for no reason.^_^

I’m completely fine with statements that hires makes someone feel better for reasons mostly unknown. I still do enjoy my overall audio experience more when I use the prettier lod cable in my DAC. I just pay attention to never let people think that the sound itself is better. But it sure is easy to slip or get misunderstood. Because after all, I do feel like the sound is better. But I can't demonstrate that I hear a difference in a blind test, and measurements actually favor another short cable I made myself(so of course it's ugly). I then decide that those are supporting evidence of me making up ”audio” changes based on what I see. Another guy will face the same data and decide that he can't be wrong about his impression so blind tests are flawed and we can't measure everything there is to hear in music. Most likely some silly excuse seeking self validation. But ultimately it's all a matter of how much confidence we put in a given piece of information. And both of us will happily use the things that make us feel the best, regardless of who's right about the objective facts. That's fine by me. But I may rip your face off if you make unlikely claims you can't support. That is where I put my line, or try to at least.

Masters are masters, when a good master is only available in a specific(overpriced?) hires format, TBH it just makes me hate that format and the entire industry behind it. That's partly how I came to hate dsd even though it's perfectly capable of carrying quality audio.
In conclusion, happiness and truth won't always walk hand in hand. This section can discuss both but should not let people assume that they're automatically one and the same.
 
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May 8, 2021 at 3:29 PM Post #6,195 of 6,480

bigshot

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All opinions are not created equal. Some are built on a foundation of critical thinking and are supported by facts, and others are subjective impressions based on emotions, perceptual error or bias. I know in internet forums the idea that everyone's opinion is valid is the general rule, but that's why a lot of opinions in internet forums aren't worth the time it takes to type or read them.

People can believe things that aren't true and spend money on things that don't buy them any better sound. That is perfectly fine to me. You have the God given right to be wasteful and foolish. Go for it. Just don't try to convince other people that your personal foolishness is valid. That crosses the line between foolishness and deception, even if the intent is just to self-validate.
 

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