Schiit Fire and Save Matches! Bifrost Multibit is Here.
Jan 8, 2016 at 6:08 PM Post #1,531 of 2,799
  from what I understand yggy has a better / newer analog output stage was wondering if that  would  improve bimby  


I own a Bifrost Multibit, and just spend the last two days auditioning a friend's Gungnir Multibit (I do not own a balanced amp).
 
I listened to my test tracks on the B with speakers, then swapped out to the G, let it warm up for about 7 hours, and then listened to the test tracks on the G.
 
The following day I listened to the test tracks on the G with a headphone setup.  I then swapped back to the B and let it warm back up overnight, and then listened to the test tracks on the B the next day.
 
My overall impression is similar to the thread linked above: If you do not own a balanced amp, you will not experience an overall benefit to the Gungnir over the Bifrost.  I thought I detected some minor improvement in detail in 24-bit files with the Gungnir Multibit, whereas with 16-bit files, they were essentially the same.
 
This was in my system, YMMV.
 
Jan 8, 2016 at 6:26 PM Post #1,532 of 2,799
I have recently upgraded my bifrost to MB and I love the SQ and I cannot see how they could improve this for the money that is why I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on what the Schiits are upto in the Schiit hole 
 
Jan 8, 2016 at 8:27 PM Post #1,533 of 2,799
 
  Does anyone know if the architecture of the system would allow Schiit to make the upsampling filter defeatable so that it can run in pure NOS mode?


Pure NOS is not pure.  It requires a very complex analog reconstruction filter to get rid of all aliasing over half of the sampling rate.  These filters have horrendous time domain anomalies.  Other than historical interest, there is little value in them.


While aliasing is clearly a big and obvious issue when blasting 0 dB test tones from about 10 kHz fundamentals and above, I'm wondering how much of an issue is it really in real-life conditions. I mean, do we really need a brickwall filter at all...
 
1. There are few (if any?) acoustic instruments that have fundamentals above 8 kHz. Is there really a need for a brickwall filter when doing NOS then?
 
2. When using 96 kHz sampling rates or above, my understanding is that aliasing is being pushed well outside the audible band. Are there any objections to FL NOS then?
 
Metrum in particular believes in FL NOS, arguing that the ear naturally functions as a steep band-pass filter (cf. auditory masking).
 
Jan 8, 2016 at 9:31 PM Post #1,534 of 2,799
Aliasing or imaging copies all information below half the sampling rate, so it doesn't matter if musical instruments have content above 20kHz. For 44.1kHz sampling, content at 1 kHz is copied to 43.1, 45.1, 87.2, 89.2 kHz, etc. 
 
Technically aliasing only occurs at the time of sampling (or resampling): unfiltered input into an ADC can overlap or alias lower frequencies. For playback, like in a DAC, they're called images, and the process of occurring at offsets off integer multiples of the sampling rate is called imaging. You could leave these images unfiltered, but you'd have to make sure that any component downstream doesn't blow up when presented with high energy high frequency content. The first SACD demos at CES had to switch amps at the last minute (from Krell or Mark Levinson, I forget, to Pass amps) because DSD's inherent high frequency noise was making the amps unstable.
 
Jan 8, 2016 at 11:53 PM Post #1,535 of 2,799
  I have recently upgraded my bifrost to MB and I love the SQ and I cannot see how they could improve this for the money that is why I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on what the Schiits are upto in the Schiit hole 


the Last Chapter on the schitt happens thread posted by Jason, mentioned the possibility of  2 channel gear this year. Pre amps and Amps if I am not mistaken. There is also the project going by code name Manhatten project. I swear it's like they leave bread crumbs all over head fi. Thats about all the bread crumbs I could find.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 12:03 AM Post #1,536 of 2,799
the Last Chapter on the schitt happens thread posted by Jason, mentioned the possibility of  2 channel gear this year. Pre amps and Amps if I am not mistaken. There is also the project going by code name Manhatten project. I swear it's like they leave bread crumbs all over head fi. Thats about all the bread crumbs I could find.

Aren't headphone amps 2-channel? Are my headphones missing a subwoofer or am I missing an ear?
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 12:23 AM Post #1,537 of 2,799
Aren't headphone amps 2-channel? Are my headphones missing a subwoofer or am I missing an ear?


Ha , Technically yes. The lingo seemed to come about when surround sound started with 5.1 channels and 7.2 etc With the channel wars when you wanted a stereo amp and the sales guy shows you one with 3.1 too many channels. Saying 2 channel seemed to be the way to get to the point, Most people refer to stereo as the whole audio system now. I know it's a crapshoot.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 2:05 AM Post #1,538 of 2,799
  Aliasing or imaging copies all information below half the sampling rate, so it doesn't matter if musical instruments have content above 20kHz. For 44.1kHz sampling, content at 1 kHz is copied to 43.1, 45.1, 87.2, 89.2 kHz, etc.

 
Technically aliasing only occurs at the time of sampling (or resampling): unfiltered input into an ADC can overlap or alias lower frequencies. For playback, like in a DAC, they're called images, and the process of occurring at offsets off integer multiples of the sampling rate is called imaging. You could leave these images unfiltered, but you'd have to make sure that any component downstream doesn't blow up when presented with high energy high frequency content. The first SACD demos at CES had to switch amps at the last minute (from Krell or Mark Levinson, I forget, to Pass amps) because DSD's inherent high frequency noise was making the amps unstable.


Hmm, but is it really audible? Like with acoustic instruments and realistic fundamentals...
 
While Delta-Sigma D/A converters clearly have a big issues with high-energy levels just outside the audible band ("coarse noise generators" as they're called in some quarters), this doesn't seem to affect run-off-the-mill NOS R2R playing back good ol' PCM... Unless of course aliasing can generate similar insane high-energy, high-frequency levels as in Delta-Sigma.
 
So the question really becomes: (1) is aliasing audible in realistic conditions and (2) is it at issue at all---for practical purposes, whether for humans or for gear---when aliasing is pushed outside the audible band using higher sampling rates?
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 3:31 AM Post #1,539 of 2,799
 
the Last Chapter on the schitt happens thread posted by Jason, mentioned the possibility of  2 channel gear this year. Pre amps and Amps if I am not mistaken. There is also the project going by code name Manhatten project. I swear it's like they leave bread crumbs all over head fi. Thats about all the bread crumbs I could find.

i have red that, what i need is,  as  I already have the 2 channel covered, therefore the next step for the DAC's, a big Sys thingy and a multi wryd thingy is what i need from Schiits 
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 5:08 AM Post #1,540 of 2,799
  i have red that, what i need is,  as  I already have the 2 channel covered, therefore the next step for the DAC's, a big Sys thingy and a multi wryd thingy is what i need from Schiits 


Oh there are a Few of us who have asked for that. I was floored when I looked for bigger passive pre amps like the sys that not many exist. The ones I found where way over priced.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 12:38 PM Post #1,541 of 2,799
 
Hmm, but is it really audible? Like with acoustic instruments and realistic fundamentals...
 
While Delta-Sigma D/A converters clearly have a big issues with high-energy levels just outside the audible band ("coarse noise generators" as they're called in some quarters), this doesn't seem to affect run-off-the-mill NOS R2R playing back good ol' PCM... Unless of course aliasing can generate similar insane high-energy, high-frequency levels as in Delta-Sigma.
 
So the question really becomes: (1) is aliasing audible in realistic conditions and (2) is it at issue at all---for practical purposes, whether for humans or for gear---when aliasing is pushed outside the audible band using higher sampling rates?

I'm not a believer in suprasonic hearing (ie. that we can hear much above 20 kHz), but electronics downstream don't have such limits! If some component after the DAC has non-linearities above 20 kHz, then signal above 20 kHz can fold down into the audible range, because that's what non-linearities will do. 
 
A NOS DAC has a steep analog filter on its outputs, so it will severely reduce any signal above 20 kHz, which is why they will generally play nice with equipment downstream. The steep analog filter unfortunately has consequences for the audible stuff as it's very difficult to implement a transparent steep analog filter, especially for 44.1 kHz sampling where the end of the passband (the stuff you want to hear) is so close to half the sampling rate. 
 
What I was proposing was to not use the steep analog filter on the output of a NOS DAC: run it straight into the next component without filtering. When you do that you get the images (not aliases) occurring at every integer multiple of the sampling rate, so anything downstream has to be tolerant of high frequency, high amplitude signals.
 
DS DACs have high frequency energy because of noise-shaping. This is a different thing than the images, which are a consequence of sampling.
 
BTW, the only time you can alias is in the ADC or when you resample.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 1:08 PM Post #1,542 of 2,799
That was helpful! Are you also able to explain what the megaburrito filter does?


I'll take a stab at this too. Again, I will probably get some technical details wrong, or leave some out, but the general idea should be correct. Someone will probably tell me if I'm way off base.

So we've got our mulit-bit DAC and we're ready to feed CD audio to it at 44.1kHz sampling rate. Meaning 44,100 samples per second go to the DAC to then be transformed into an analog output waveform which we can then hear via our audio equipment. But there's a problem already before we even get started. It's called aliasing. Aliasing in digital audio shows up as high frequencies, above the normal cut off frequency, which aren't part of the music or the original signal. This aliasing is "noise" for all intents; it's not helpful. In a 44.1kHz system, this noise shows up above 44.1k / 2 = 22.05 kHz.

Early DACs (in CD players) used a very steep analog filter on the output which would dramatically reduce the output of the DAC at 22.05 kHz (and up from there). These filters are very, very steep. So they were nicknamed "brick wall filters" because that's what the graph looks like: A wall starting at the cut off frequency. The problem with these brick wall filters is, they introduce phase shifts. These phase shifts reach back past the cutoff point, into the audible band from 20kHz and down. Phase is related to time, so these phase shifts can also be thought of as time shifts, or time errors. Some call this "smearing" the time or phase. Whatever you call it, it's not what you want if you want a "true" signal coming out of your DAC.

So how do you fix this? One way of fixing it, is up sampling or oversampling. There's a technical difference between the two terms, which I honestly don't completely understand. Here's what you need to know: In this context, it means changing the sampling rate from 44.1 kHz UP to a higher frequency like 88.2 kHz, or even 176.4 kHz. Once you have your audio at this new higher sample rate, the aliasing noise gets shifted up to a higher frequency. ...and now we can use a filter at a high enough frequency that no phase shift gets back into the frequency band we can hear. By the time you get to 20kHz, there is no phase shift at all.

But how do we do this oversampling? By adding in more samples. If you go from 44.1 kHz to 88.2 kHz, you have to double the number of samples. If you go from 44.1 to 176.4 you have to have 4 times as many samples.

Well, how do you do *that*? You make up the samples by estimating or "guessing". You can't just repeat the samples, that wouldn't work. You have to interpolate between the existing samples and make up new data points that seem to fit in correctly. Simple averaging won't work either; that would make the waveforms start to look like triangle waves.

There are several ways of doing this and frankly I don't understand the math. I *do* know that (almost) every method of up sampling (oversampling) digital data involves successive approximation, which means multiplying each sample by some values, which transform those samples to new values. Pay attention here, this is the important part: As I understand it, this process throws away every single sample that is fed into it. Let's say you feed in 1 second of data, which is 44,100 samples. At the output you get 88,200 samples. How many of the 44,100 from the input get to the output untouched? I would have expected that all of them got through. But I would be WRONG about that. NONE of them make it through. All 88,200 samples that come out of this process are brand new. Unless I'm wrong about this (and I don't think I am) this is mind blowing. Upsampling (oversampling) destroys all of the original data!

This is how nearly every multi-bit DAC works. Very early DACs used an analog brick wall filter. All of the later ones used oversampling as I described above. Remember up above when I said that *almost* every method of oversampling throws away the original samples? I said that because ONE oversampling method does not throw away the samples. That method is Schiit's proprietary "megacombo burrito filter". The Mega filter uses math that is able to do these interpolations, to make up the new samples we need for our higher sampling rate, but it also keeps all of the original samples intact. So we get our upsampled data, but we also KEEP all of the original data too. When we feed 44,100 samples in, and get (for example) 176,400 out, all 44,100 of the original samples are included in the output. Intact. Unaltered.

The benefits of this are beyond my current technical understanding. Mike Moffat says that keeping the original samples preserves the timing information in the music. Timing information that would otherwise be altered by a conventional successive approximation upsampling method. I'm inclined to believe Mr. Moffat as his technical knowledge on this subject dwarfs mine. He's also devoted a huge chunk of his time (and his life) to developing this method and this math. So it's obviously rather important to him.

So that's it: The Megacombo burrito filter preserves all original samples when doing oversampling so that we can use our multi-bit DAC (at a high sample rate) and a gentle (non-brick wall) filter to remove aliasing noise, and not affect the audible band of frequencies.

Brian.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 3:17 PM Post #1,544 of 2,799
Well done!
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 3:21 PM Post #1,545 of 2,799
I'll take a stab at this too. Again, I will probably get some technical details wrong, or leave some out, but the general idea should be correct. Someone will probably tell me if I'm way off base.

So we've got our mulit-bit DAC and we're ready to feed CD audio to it at 44.1kHz sampling rate. Meaning 44,100 samples per second go to the DAC to then be transformed into an analog output waveform which we can then hear via our audio equipment. But there's a problem already before we even get started. It's called aliasing. Aliasing in digital audio shows up as high frequencies, above the normal cut off frequency, which aren't part of the music or the original signal. This aliasing is "noise" for all intents; it's not helpful. In a 44.1kHz system, this noise shows up above 44.1k / 2 = 22.05 kHz.

Early DACs (in CD players) used a very steep analog filter on the output which would dramatically reduce the output of the DAC at 22.05 kHz (and up from there). These filters are very, very steep. So they were nicknamed "brick wall filters" because that's what the graph looks like: A wall starting at the cut off frequency. The problem with these brick wall filters is, they introduce phase shifts. These phase shifts reach back past the cutoff point, into the audible band from 20kHz and down. Phase is related to time, so these phase shifts can also be thought of as time shifts, or time errors. Some call this "smearing" the time or phase. Whatever you call it, it's not what you want if you want a "true" signal coming out of your DAC.

So how do you fix this? One way of fixing it, is up sampling or oversampling. There's a technical difference between the two terms, which I honestly don't completely understand. Here's what you need to know: In this context, it means changing the sampling rate from 44.1 kHz UP to a higher frequency like 88.2 kHz, or even 176.4 kHz. Once you have your audio at this new higher sample rate, the aliasing noise gets shifted up to a higher frequency. ...and now we can use a filter at a high enough frequency that no phase shift gets back into the frequency band we can hear. By the time you get to 20kHz, there is no phase shift at all.


First off, this is an excellent post. Just fantastic.

It sounds like there are times in the post that sampling frequency (digital) is either being confused with or blurred in understanding with the audio frequency (analog content).

I'm not sure that that really effects the underlying message of the post though.
 

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