Fantastic, methodical review that I believe. You've been waiting for a DAC that clearly stood out and justified itself. Glad this one fits the bill. Great way to share your comparison and I really understand + like comments such as: "With the Benchmark, you hear more instruments and less hall with this recording."
Headphone Reviews and Discussion - Head-Fi.org
CEE TEE
jazzfan
Thank you to all who have read the review, especially to those who have taken time to comment.
@ZoNtO - Yes, it is a nice amp. It's overkill for my current desktop systems (but then again, so is my sub), but it'll likely use it to drive a future Maggie based system.
@ZoNtO - Yes, it is a nice amp. It's overkill for my current desktop systems (but then again, so is my sub), but it'll likely use it to drive a future Maggie based system.
jamato8
A well written and presented review that is long enough to cover important details, giving a since of what the Yggy is about without being so long that what has been read, is forgotten as time passes.
jazzfan
@jamato8 - Thanks for commenting. It's much appreciated.
audiot
Thanks for the review! Not wanting to sound ungrateful, but the DAC1 series is discontinued. Would it be possible to beg, borrow, or steal (just kidding) a DAC2 for comparison with the Yggy? They are both in the same price range, but my suspicions are that the Yggy would still be the winner.
jazzfan
@audiot - I would have loved to have included the DAC2 HGC in this review, but unfortunately, I didn't have access to that or other high-end DACs. Perhaps in a future update to this review.
@SF/Bay Area Head-Fiers Group - I would be open to a high-end DAC shootout with other members in the area. If you own a high-end DAC and are interested in comparing DACs, send me a PM to discuss.
@SF/Bay Area Head-Fiers Group - I would be open to a high-end DAC shootout with other members in the area. If you own a high-end DAC and are interested in comparing DACs, send me a PM to discuss.
groovyd
'There was additional delay due to also having switch USB devices in JRiver.' using a Mac you can setup a custom combined usb device under Midi Setup that lets you output to both devices at the same time.
jazzfan
@groovyd - Thanks for the Mac tip! It's my understanding similar functionality is available through the use of ASIO4ALL for Windows. However, for some reason I never was able to get it to work. I might have to try it again someday.
Ableza
Knocking Yggdrasil because it doesn't do DSD is like knocking a Mercedes SL because you can't put a 4X8 sheet of plywood into it. Yggdrasil is by far the best sounding piece of digital audio equipment I've heard in 20 years regardless of price. But yea, if you want DSD then get something commercial and suffer with lesser sound quality.
landroni
One aspect absent from this excellent review is a mention of the fundamental differences in the low-level implementations of the two DACs, one being R-2R while the other (probably) Delta-Sigma. I suspect many of the perceived differences in this review (e.g. "natural" sounding or retrieved "reverberations") can be in large part explained by this. To get an idea of what I'm driving at check out this thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/779572/r2r-multibit-vs-delta-sigma#post_11885328
The Yggy is a multibit DAC design (also known as R-2R or "ladder" DAC). All things being equal, the DAC chips are more expensive and require extremely high-precision manufacturing. There are few such devices on the market, and the AD5791 chip used in Yggy falls in the same class as the legendary Philips TDA154x series or Burr-Brown PCM 1704. They don't support DSD and probably never will. As explained in this article:
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue65/dac.htm
"The Philips TDA154x series and Burr-Brown PCM 63, 1702, and 1704 operate in a completely different way from the delta-sigma DACs that dominate the market today. They are "flash" DACs with single-pass conversion; there's no feedback of any kind. The signal goes straight through the switch array and that's it, off to the analog world for amplification. Once the difficult part of current-to-voltage conversion is accomplished, the rest is easy—basically, a high-quality microphone preamp and line driver, not the most difficult thing to do in the analog world."
The DAC1, on the other hand, is (probably) a Delta-Sigma design. I've tried to scour the specs but they weren't very informative. The DAC2 however supports DSD, and the specs mention Sabre chipsets (most likely a ES9018, but I don't know), so it's safe to assume it's a DS design. DS is generally much cheaper to produce and smaller in size. The article linked above has this to say on the differences between the two low-level designs:
"There are lots of things wrong with delta-sigma DACs—most stemming from the fact they are low-bit devices using extremely complex feedback systems to synthesize high-bit performance.
That puts the 3-bit difference between the class-leading ESS 9018 and the class-leading Burr-Brown 1704 in a different light. The performance of the 1704 is the native performance, akin to a zero-feedback amplifier. What you hear is not an algorithm, but the device itself.
The ESS 9018, along with all the other delta-sigma converters out there (including the latest Burr-Brown products), realize their performance with extremely complex digital-feedback algorithms. You are hearing the algorithm, not the 5= or 6-bit converter, and a lot of very strange things can happen with that algorithm. ESS spent several years and a lot of engineer-hours trying to find out what the "golden ears" were hearing—and found, measured, and then corrected several different problems. Given the complexity of noise-shaping techniques, though, there could still be some...
http://www.head-fi.org/t/779572/r2r-multibit-vs-delta-sigma#post_11885328
The Yggy is a multibit DAC design (also known as R-2R or "ladder" DAC). All things being equal, the DAC chips are more expensive and require extremely high-precision manufacturing. There are few such devices on the market, and the AD5791 chip used in Yggy falls in the same class as the legendary Philips TDA154x series or Burr-Brown PCM 1704. They don't support DSD and probably never will. As explained in this article:
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue65/dac.htm
"The Philips TDA154x series and Burr-Brown PCM 63, 1702, and 1704 operate in a completely different way from the delta-sigma DACs that dominate the market today. They are "flash" DACs with single-pass conversion; there's no feedback of any kind. The signal goes straight through the switch array and that's it, off to the analog world for amplification. Once the difficult part of current-to-voltage conversion is accomplished, the rest is easy—basically, a high-quality microphone preamp and line driver, not the most difficult thing to do in the analog world."
The DAC1, on the other hand, is (probably) a Delta-Sigma design. I've tried to scour the specs but they weren't very informative. The DAC2 however supports DSD, and the specs mention Sabre chipsets (most likely a ES9018, but I don't know), so it's safe to assume it's a DS design. DS is generally much cheaper to produce and smaller in size. The article linked above has this to say on the differences between the two low-level designs:
"There are lots of things wrong with delta-sigma DACs—most stemming from the fact they are low-bit devices using extremely complex feedback systems to synthesize high-bit performance.
That puts the 3-bit difference between the class-leading ESS 9018 and the class-leading Burr-Brown 1704 in a different light. The performance of the 1704 is the native performance, akin to a zero-feedback amplifier. What you hear is not an algorithm, but the device itself.
The ESS 9018, along with all the other delta-sigma converters out there (including the latest Burr-Brown products), realize their performance with extremely complex digital-feedback algorithms. You are hearing the algorithm, not the 5= or 6-bit converter, and a lot of very strange things can happen with that algorithm. ESS spent several years and a lot of engineer-hours trying to find out what the "golden ears" were hearing—and found, measured, and then corrected several different problems. Given the complexity of noise-shaping techniques, though, there could still be some...
landroni
...surprises to be discovered."
In my understanding DS is a fundamentally lossy digital-to-analog conversion process (even with lossless input files), which discards original samples and then proceeds to interpolate and guesswork what has previously been thrown away. Effectively this means that Delta-Sigma DAPs/DACs (a huge majority on the market) are not bit-perfect. R-2R DACs are.
So when all is said and done, lack of DSD support in Yggy is not a bug, but a feature. It seems that DSD was introduced specifically to work around fundamental Delta-Sigma limitations, and has no place in the R-2R universe. This really should not weigh down on the rating of an otherwise outstanding, as it seems, device.
In my understanding DS is a fundamentally lossy digital-to-analog conversion process (even with lossless input files), which discards original samples and then proceeds to interpolate and guesswork what has previously been thrown away. Effectively this means that Delta-Sigma DAPs/DACs (a huge majority on the market) are not bit-perfect. R-2R DACs are.
So when all is said and done, lack of DSD support in Yggy is not a bug, but a feature. It seems that DSD was introduced specifically to work around fundamental Delta-Sigma limitations, and has no place in the R-2R universe. This really should not weigh down on the rating of an otherwise outstanding, as it seems, device.
jazzfan
@Ableza - Your choice of words is a bit harsh given the favorable nature of the review. Pros/Cons are meant to highlight a few aspects of the equipment under review that will assists readers with making an informed purchasing decision. While I agree with your statement that the Yggdasil is a fine piece of equipment, I also felt that some readers, who might prefer DSD, would appreciate a statement of fact with respect to the Yggdasil feature set. I also failed to mention (and probably should have noted) the Yggdasil currently lacks ASIO support under Windows 10. This of course may change in the future.
Omitting these facts, is to deprive readers of information that may be important in their decision to purchase of piece of equipment.
Omitting these facts, is to deprive readers of information that may be important in their decision to purchase of piece of equipment.
jazzfan
@landroni - Thanks for taking the time to share such a thorough and insightful comment. You are correct in your understanding that the DAC1 PRE is a Delta-Sigma design. From what I can recall, I believe it uses an Analog Devices AD1853, and I agree with your premise that I'm likely hearing the differences between the two designs.
landroni
@jazzfan - Did you ever get the chance to compare the Yggy with other top-flight DACs? In particular, how does it fare versus the Audio-GD Master 7? Apparently Schiit and Audio-GD are the two best (only?) R-2R games in town, and the Yggy and Master 7 are both flagships of the respective companies. They're very similarly priced, but the Master 7 has the honor of still using the venerable Burr-Brown PCM1704 chipset. Elsewhere I heard that Schiit had usually a somewhat "bright" sound signature, whereas the Audio-GD (R-2R) wares were more "natural" sounding. I was hoping though that someone had the opportunity to compare them toe-to-toe...
jazzfan
@landroni - I've not made a comparison against the Audio-GD Master 7. Also, I believe there are many more Tier 1 DACs, some R2R and some not, that you might also want to consider depending on your budget. I can send you a list of several notable DACs. Unfortunately, I've not had an opportunity to hear any of the DACs in the list, and all are priced well beyond my present DAC budget. The Yggy represents an excellent value that, at least for the time being, is an endgame DAC for me.
landroni
@jazzfan - Thank you for this. I also discovered this thread discussing and ranking some two dozen top-flight DACs, including Yggy, DAC1 and Master 7:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-delta-sigma-kinda-sucks-just-to-get-you-to-think-about-stuff
The Yggy beats the DAC1 hands-down, mirroring this review, but also comes unequivocally top of the field (across all technologies, whether R-2R, Delta-Sigma or FPGA). According to them, the Yggy is the end-game DAC currently available. The Master 7 comes in best of the rest. I guess ultimately the choice between Yggy and Master 7 will boil down to personal preferences, as each device seems to be out standing in its own right. There are other devices on the same level, like the Theta's, but they're no longer in production (reportedly designed by the same hands as the Yggy).
http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-delta-sigma-kinda-sucks-just-to-get-you-to-think-about-stuff
The Yggy beats the DAC1 hands-down, mirroring this review, but also comes unequivocally top of the field (across all technologies, whether R-2R, Delta-Sigma or FPGA). According to them, the Yggy is the end-game DAC currently available. The Master 7 comes in best of the rest. I guess ultimately the choice between Yggy and Master 7 will boil down to personal preferences, as each device seems to be out standing in its own right. There are other devices on the same level, like the Theta's, but they're no longer in production (reportedly designed by the same hands as the Yggy).
landroni
For the fun of it, here's what Schiit has to say about Yggy's (lack of) support for DSD:
http://schiit.com/public/upload/PDF/yggdrasil_manual_1_1.pdf
"In case you missed it, Yggdrasil does not decode DSD:
1. Like we said, this is the antithesis of noise-shaping technologies
like DSD. Antithesis = the utter opposite.
2. We chose to optimize Yggdrasil for the 99.99% of music out there
that is available in PCM format, rather than the tiny percentage of
DSD files. We’d rather make the most out of what we have, than bet
that the entire recording chain can be overturned. If this is not your
philosophy, we understand completely.
3. If you’d like to listen to your DSD files, you can convert them to
PCM with most popular players. This is exactly the same as what
happens in most popular DAC chips, but at much higher quality."
And some more Schiit marketing touching on the R2R vs DS conundrum:
"It [Yggy] is the antithesis of noise-shaping technologies like
DSD, preserving all the original PCM samples from
input, through clock reconstruction at the original
sample rate, the digital filter, to true multibit DACs
suitable for medical and military technology. It is an
extension of multibit technology that deviated into
noise-shaped solutions 20 years ago."
http://schiit.com/public/upload/PDF/yggdrasil_manual_1_1.pdf
"In case you missed it, Yggdrasil does not decode DSD:
1. Like we said, this is the antithesis of noise-shaping technologies
like DSD. Antithesis = the utter opposite.
2. We chose to optimize Yggdrasil for the 99.99% of music out there
that is available in PCM format, rather than the tiny percentage of
DSD files. We’d rather make the most out of what we have, than bet
that the entire recording chain can be overturned. If this is not your
philosophy, we understand completely.
3. If you’d like to listen to your DSD files, you can convert them to
PCM with most popular players. This is exactly the same as what
happens in most popular DAC chips, but at much higher quality."
And some more Schiit marketing touching on the R2R vs DS conundrum:
"It [Yggy] is the antithesis of noise-shaping technologies like
DSD, preserving all the original PCM samples from
input, through clock reconstruction at the original
sample rate, the digital filter, to true multibit DACs
suitable for medical and military technology. It is an
extension of multibit technology that deviated into
noise-shaped solutions 20 years ago."
Nu3nO
Thanks for the review. I've been checking out R2R DACs & from the Yggdrasil gut photo, I don't see the battalion of resistors. I noticed that the precision resistors take up a sizable chunk of real estate on the circuit board, with reference to gut photos of totaldac d1-dual & soekris dam1021. It's Adapticlock sounds mutual to the CrystalLock of Lavry DA924. Just curious.
landroni
@Nu3nO
See this post by Jason Stoddard:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/7635#post_11904537
It looks like both TotalDAC and Soekris use discrete resistor ladder DACs, whereas Schiit rely on multibit ladder DACs by Analog Devices (e.g. AD5791 for Yggy) not specifically designed for audio.
See this post by Jason Stoddard:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/7635#post_11904537
It looks like both TotalDAC and Soekris use discrete resistor ladder DACs, whereas Schiit rely on multibit ladder DACs by Analog Devices (e.g. AD5791 for Yggy) not specifically designed for audio.
Nu3nO
@landroni
Thanks for the pointer & I'm enlightened. I'm not an engineer in analog or digital electronics but I am interested in this so called 'multibit' DAC, at least superficially. If the Yggdrasil is not implementing discrete R2R ladder with AD5791 for multibit then is it possible that the firmware is providing the multibit reference or processing? I don't see internal R2R ladder on the internal chip functional block diagram at a glance. I would appreciate it if anyone else can chime in & shed some more light on this subject matter, for general knowledge.
Thanks for the pointer & I'm enlightened. I'm not an engineer in analog or digital electronics but I am interested in this so called 'multibit' DAC, at least superficially. If the Yggdrasil is not implementing discrete R2R ladder with AD5791 for multibit then is it possible that the firmware is providing the multibit reference or processing? I don't see internal R2R ladder on the internal chip functional block diagram at a glance. I would appreciate it if anyone else can chime in & shed some more light on this subject matter, for general knowledge.
