Rising cost of "audiophile" equipment and importance of bias/blind testing
May 10, 2017 at 3:03 AM Post #1,276 of 1,376

Wow, whatsup Bigshot?? You probably don't remember me, but my name used to be "Remix" before I changed it to Dillan a few years ago. I remember posting for weeks on a thread about FLAC vs MP3 and I was the only one on your side backing you up haha

Edit: Also thanks for the wiki link. Now I understand! Still seems scary to me haha
 
May 10, 2017 at 9:51 AM Post #1,277 of 1,376
Off topic- But always wondered what your avatar was. It looks like a nightmare inducing clown. LOL

I do think vintage gear is probably the most cost effective way to go. You can buy amazing gear, broken in and proved to withstand the tests of time for dirt cheap in some cases and older audio equipment just sounds... natural. All this new tech seems to have lost the magic. I am partial to old Mcintosh stuff.
"copy image location" of the picture you want to know about. then go to https://images.google.com/ and click on the little camera. there you past the image location and voila! Alexander Vertinsky

I'm
4d7.png
 
May 10, 2017 at 3:49 PM Post #1,280 of 1,376
Wow, whatsup Bigshot?? You probably don't remember me, but my name used to be "Remix" before I changed it to Dillan a few years ago.


Just like a bad penny, I keep turning up! Nice to see ya again!
 
May 15, 2017 at 4:55 PM Post #1,281 of 1,376
i just saw this thread now. i don´t have much money and in the past i wasted some money reading various audio forum and always seeking the holy graal of the headphones. due to a problem in one ear, i sold all losing a lot of money.
my conclusion was that i had more satisfaction with mid-profile products. i restarted my adventure in headphones wit a very low profile and i´m quite happy.
of course the top products sound better but in what proportion?definitely unrelated to the cost. so why insane prices???only 4.000-5.000 dollars headphones?because people buy them.especially the new rich they have to show the status symbol.so if exists a market, the company sell to this market.
in the other side, we are full of products with espectacular Q/P relationship, so today we have a higher quality with less money to spend
 
May 15, 2017 at 8:12 PM Post #1,282 of 1,376
Very good remarks...I myself discover that mid-fi product can touch TOTL product by some easy, not too costly modifications...if you have money, you buy the costlier and the better, without thinking....I have no money, and i am in an audio paradise now...:ksc75smile:

i just saw this thread now. i don´t have much money and in the past i wasted some money reading various audio forum and always seeking the holy graal of the headphones. due to a problem in one ear, i sold all losing a lot of money.
my conclusion was that i had more satisfaction with mid-profile products. i restarted my adventure in headphones wit a very low profile and i´m quite happy.
of course the top products sound better but in what proportion?definitely unrelated to the cost. so why insane prices???only 4.000-5.000 dollars headphones?because people buy them.especially the new rich they have to show the status symbol.so if exists a market, the company sell to this market.
in the other side, we are full of products with espectacular Q/P relationship, so today we have a higher quality with less money to spend
 
May 15, 2017 at 10:02 PM Post #1,283 of 1,376
there is nothing forcing a product to be the best because it's the most expensive. even down to earth economical reasons like limited quantity, or massive R&D don't say anything about the resulting quality. only that it must cost a lot to cover cost.
but because you guys keep that nonsensical idea of expensive=best, more and more products come out with a ludicrous price tags simply as a marketing idea to make you think they are good products. and it works because amateur audio people almost never fact check anything, nor look too hard into objective fidelity.
even worst, in this hobby we've come to assume that a technology is better simply because it costs more. like tubes vs solid state, R2R kind of chips vs delta sigma, balanced vs single ended...
Iriver as a DAP manufacturer had been almost completely forgotten after a few IMO cool DAPs back in the days. they came up with zero new technology and instead went for a rebranding. named the stuff A&K, put a ludicrous price on a really average device with massive defects, and sold it like it was the best stuff ever made for the elite of this world. all based on marketing and the decision to price some crap chips on PCB like they're a luxury item. later on they corrected a few of the defects and instead of saying sorry, went to sell that for double the price. and again it worked and they sold plenty. didn't take a genius to guess what they would do next. "let's see how far we can go before those suckers stop paying" is obviously what everybody thought.
sony also on the verge of being forgotten by elite audiophiles because of their consistently sub par amp section, saw that and jumped on board. started selling some good looking DAP for too much money when it didn't measure better than an iphone. became all the rage when it came out. so of course like a good student, sony also went for the new stuff at twice the price joke.
headphones are even worst IMO. prices are stupid, half of the expensive ones don't even comes with a certified fidelity or signature. the stuff measured on demos is often not what the consumer will buy, the same model will go though X silent revisions and if you liked the first one, well F you. in the end you basically we pay crazy prices for an EQ into something that isn't even always comfortable. but it's above 1k$ so it has to be the best am I right?

pricing is a complicated process but when you say stuff like "...if you have money, you buy the costlier and the better...", you're showing how they're right to keep rising prices purely as a marketing stunt no matter the quality of the product. because why bother with objective quality when you can ride on a great fallacy like the preconception that better and expensive are one and the same?

if a product was clearly and objectively the best, I would find it alright to have an exaggerated price. excellence is truly special and anybody who's the best at something has IMO the right to make up his own value as long as nobody can challenge him. but that implies evidence of being the best in the first place, and accountability when it's proved to be untrue. something that doesn't exist in consumer audio. so until we get better accountability, high prices mean nothing aside from how many hours we worked to get that value.
 
May 16, 2017 at 2:29 AM Post #1,284 of 1,376
In the recently past a top headphone(excluding stax, sony king and qualia, grado hp-1000)was around 500 dollars, now we have iem for 2.000.
The case of A&K for me is a big mistery.
The top dap costs like a classic audiophile system
 
May 16, 2017 at 4:03 AM Post #1,285 of 1,376
... if you have money, you buy the costlier and the better ...

I agree entirely with Castleofargh. In the audiophile world, costlier does not always equate with better. For some components in the chain, most commonly the transducers (headphones and speakers), as the price goes up you do often (but not always!) get better, at least up to a point. But for many of today's audiophile components, costlier = no better/the same. Worse still, in many cases what you actually get is costlier = worse! What's stunning is that this simply doesn't matter to many audiophiles, they're so suckered by marketing and testimonials that they're totally convinced the crap they've bought is wonderful. Here's a quote from a Schiit DAC appreciation thread here on head-fi:

"Mine makes crackling noise sometimes, especially at the end of tracks, and occasionally there's distortion, but even less often. It's slightly defective, so Schiit is going to replace it for me. But I love it so much I don't want to be without it, so I'm gonna wait a bit longer before sending it in. ... I'm just blown away by how realistic a DAC at this relatively low price can sound."

The DAC in question is not one of the ridiculously priced units but this suckered audiophile has still paid about 20 times the retail price of the DAC in an iPhone and about 100 times the price of a standard mass produced DAC chip, both of which would have demonstrably far superior performance. This audiophile can even hear very serious performance problems and STILL thinks it's wonderful???! Some appropriate advertising, a bit of pseudo-science, bending the truth, a lie or two and buying/acquiring favourable reviews and testimonials, is obviously far and away the most important factor, a factor which appears to completely trump actual performance. And, Schiit is far from the worst offender!

G
 
May 16, 2017 at 4:17 AM Post #1,286 of 1,376
one more example: i bought one mojo used and i was very happy because the sound is incredible for the price. after i found an hugo used and i bought. for me sounds good but for me is too expensive for the performance
 
May 16, 2017 at 6:02 AM Post #1,287 of 1,376
one more example: i bought one mojo used and i was very happy because the sound is incredible for the price. after i found an hugo used and i bought. for me sounds good but for me is too expensive for the performance

It is a good example, though maybe not for the reason you think. A Mojo is what $500? Does it provide measurably higher performance than a modern mass produced $2 DAC chip? Possibly but even if it does, any measured performance gain is pretty much guaranteed to be outside audibility. At a guess, you could get the same level of sound quality as the Mojo from what, about $30 or so of components? So, what about the other $470 they're charging? Why are you "very happy" about the incredible sound quality for the price? Essentially audiophile marketing (and all it's facets) has led you to believe/feel it's good value for the money. Of course, all this just makes the Hugo many times more ridiculous than even you think it is!

G
 
May 16, 2017 at 8:56 AM Post #1,288 of 1,376
It is a good example, though maybe not for the reason you think. A Mojo is what $500? Does it provide measurably higher performance than a modern mass produced $2 DAC chip? Possibly but even if it does, any measured performance gain is pretty much guaranteed to be outside audibility. At a guess, you could get the same level of sound quality as the Mojo from what, about $30 or so of components? So, what about the other $470 they're charging? Why are you "very happy" about the incredible sound quality for the price? Essentially audiophile marketing (and all it's facets) has led you to believe/feel it's good value for the money. Of course, all this just makes the Hugo many times more ridiculous than even you think it is!

G
you´re right but you understand that i can only talk about things listened in my house.
if you see in mouser or other equivalent, you see the price of xilinx(spartan or artic)processor. the hugo 2 has the same chip of the mojo and cost more than 2.000 dollars. i wrote that i was really happy with mojo after many years with sigma-delta dacs and in my opinion the sound in mojo is more natural and detailed
now i´m curious about r2r dacs. today we have more cheap productos with ladder dacs. interesting is the propsect and compairison with expensive ladder like msb
about 2 dollars dac chip i listened a lot of dacs with the akm 4490. more or less the same performance, the only exception the dac board of jotunheim: really bad in my opinion
 
May 16, 2017 at 4:48 PM Post #1,289 of 1,376
Regarding the Mojo. All I can report is that for years I have listened to iPhone's. Happy in the knowledge that they measure well. I could never settle with my music though. Bought the Mojo. Now I listen to music not just sound. My experience. YMMV
 
May 19, 2017 at 6:51 PM Post #1,290 of 1,376
there is nothing forcing a product to be the best because it's the most expensive. even down to earth economical reasons like limited quantity, or massive R&D don't say anything about the resulting quality. only that it must cost a lot to cover cost.
but because you guys keep that nonsensical idea of expensive=best, more and more products come out with a ludicrous price tags simply as a marketing idea to make you think they are good products. and it works because amateur audio people almost never fact check anything, nor look too hard into objective fidelity.
even worst, in this hobby we've come to assume that a technology is better simply because it costs more. like tubes vs solid state, R2R kind of chips vs delta sigma, balanced vs single ended...
Iriver as a DAP manufacturer had been almost completely forgotten after a few IMO cool DAPs back in the days. they came up with zero new technology and instead went for a rebranding. named the stuff A&K, put a ludicrous price on a really average device with massive defects, and sold it like it was the best stuff ever made for the elite of this world. all based on marketing and the decision to price some crap chips on PCB like they're a luxury item. later on they corrected a few of the defects and instead of saying sorry, went to sell that for double the price. and again it worked and they sold plenty. didn't take a genius to guess what they would do next. "let's see how far we can go before those suckers stop paying" is obviously what everybody thought.
sony also on the verge of being forgotten by elite audiophiles because of their consistently sub par amp section, saw that and jumped on board. started selling some good looking DAP for too much money when it didn't measure better than an iphone. became all the rage when it came out. so of course like a good student, sony also went for the new stuff at twice the price joke.
headphones are even worst IMO. prices are stupid, half of the expensive ones don't even comes with a certified fidelity or signature. the stuff measured on demos is often not what the consumer will buy, the same model will go though X silent revisions and if you liked the first one, well F you. in the end you basically we pay crazy prices for an EQ into something that isn't even always comfortable. but it's above 1k$ so it has to be the best am I right?

pricing is a complicated process but when you say stuff like "...if you have money, you buy the costlier and the better...", you're showing how they're right to keep rising prices purely as a marketing stunt no matter the quality of the product. because why bother with objective quality when you can ride on a great fallacy like the preconception that better and expensive are one and the same?

if a product was clearly and objectively the best, I would find it alright to have an exaggerated price. excellence is truly special and anybody who's the best at something has IMO the right to make up his own value as long as nobody can challenge him. but that implies evidence of being the best in the first place, and accountability when it's proved to be untrue. something that doesn't exist in consumer audio. so until we get better accountability, high prices mean nothing aside from how many hours we worked to get that value.

Hello -
I would very much like to read and understand your posts, because I know you have much to contribute to this thread and to Head-Fi in general, but would it be asking too much to include capital letters to start sentences and the names of companies/products? Without caps, it is very difficult for me to read a long and detailed post.

As an example, I read your above post three times. I fully agree with the points stated, just looking for a bit of an easier read.

Thank you,
RCBinTN
 

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