[Strangelove424]

The 5.1 version is way better.
I have an appreciation for well engineered solutions to common problems. Nobody else has addressed these issues in such a comprehensive manner.
Perhaps, but here's an example: Find me a set of speakers, LCR and a few S's, that have the same characteristics as THX Ultra2 certified speakers in one aspect only: dispersion. Go ahead, I'll wait for your reply. On second thought, find me a consumer speaker that even specifies a full set of polar plots that reveal it's spectral dispersion...at all.

I mostly agree, but there are actual products designed for this purpose, small enough to be well placed, and still have controlled vertical dispersion, and have matched identical LCRs. You're the one using the term "impossible".

I'm not going to take much time here to comment on the article source...but salt grains should be kept handy.

Sounds like you agree with me on the basic problem, but just don't like my solution, which Audioholics even suggests as an alternative, because it doesn't have some fancy name like THX attached to it. I've enough experience with calibration equipment, EQ, and years of listening to tell myself whether something works or not. I never grew up around price inflated "certified" big name equipment, and always had to get scrappy and build up systems myself by applying science and some creativity. I'm a luckier now to have a well designed comprehensive package now (besides my general complaint against MTM central speakers) but that wasn't always the case. And I've never had qualms about mixing and matching. I've gone through many subs just to find one I'm happy with for music. Anyway, you can keep paying the markup for THX certification, if it means enough to you.

A little research seems to indicate that Ultra2 is a Klipsch product. You seem to be cramming a single brand down everyone's throats. I've never been a fan of Klipsch. This is a general multi channel thread, not a brand specific one. If you continue to promote for Ultra 2 I think you will be dulling the power of your own words.

 

[bigshot]

Who are you referring to? THX doesn't certify home theaters anymore, haven't in quite some time, there's no paperwork, licensing fee or certificate.

I guess this was about 6 or 7 years ago or so when I moved into my house.

I've enough experience with calibration equipment, EQ, and years of listening to tell myself whether something works or not. I never grew up around price inflated "certified" big name equipment, and always had to get scrappy and build up systems myself by applying science and some creativity.

I agree completely. Knowing the fundamentals and being able to do your own calibration is the best of all worlds, because someone else isn't deciding where to make the compromises for you. For 99.9 percent of people putting a home theater together involves the art of compromise. Strict dogma doesn't work unless you are rich enough to build your whole listening room from the ground up.

 

[Strangelove424]

That's pretty much how he explained it to me. He said that whenever he sets up a theater, he always follows all the guidelines as close as he can anyway. But if he certifies it, he has to submit a bunch of paperwork and pay a licensing fee. That costs more for basically just a certificate.

My particular room has a lot of compromises for practical reasons. The sound can't be focused on a single listening position. My seating is set up in a horseshoe facing the screen, with people sitting very close to the speakers on the side. It has to disperse to the sides without a lot of reflections. I found that putting the speakers in a horseshoe facing the couches in a horseshoe, it worked pretty well from any seating position. Likewise, raising the center and rears pulled the soundstage up higher. The important thing to me is that the room serve the function of a living room well when the screen is up and the stereo turned off. I didn't want one of those home theaters with the big leather lounge chairs lined up in rows all facing the screen. The installer worked for quite a while working out the angles to make it work well. The wide angle lens distorts this a lot, but it gives you the idea.

(picture in quote removed for space saving)

The mains on left and right are custom made 15 inch 6 way studio monitors from the mid 70s. JBL towers alongside the fireplace. Klipsch Reference center channel. Sunfire 12 inch True Sub on the right. The screen is behind the beam with the rifle on it. It's ten feet wide and comes just to the tops of the JBL towers and about 3 feet from the size walls.. On the right under the swordfish's sword is a 1924 Brunswick Cortez phonograph. The rears are Klipsch bookshelves. That is the last element up for upgrading. My media server runs off a Mac Mini with 70TB of storage on five disk arrays. The amp is a Yamaha AVR, and the player is an Oppo BDP103D. Directly over where this picture was taken is the projector attached to the beam above the center couch. It's an Epson 7500ub.

By the way, even though I use a bunch of different types of speakers here, I've EQed them all channel by channel to tonally match the handoff from speaker to speaker. They're all capable of producing a very high volume level with all the important frequencies balanced. It's a lot easier to work with all the same make and model of speaker, but it isn't totally necessary. Varying vertical and horizontal helps disperse too. The soundstage with this particular arrangement is remarkably large while still being properly placed. I have a movie where a character walks from the right channel to the center to the left across the screen while speaking and the handoff is perfect and seamless. Multichannel mixes with realistic soundstage like the new Roy Orbison B&W Night remix have pinpoint accuracy. You can close your eyes and point to every musician on the screen.

Wow, that looks like a very nice place to listen to music. The home theatres that mimic commercial theatres never looked inviting to me, and just awkward for 90% of use scenarios. Do we have to worship the screen? Interesting gear. How does the Brunswick phonograph sound compared to modern stuff? Do you have new cartridges in there or is it all antique?

I like the way you've arranged the vertical component. Adding height to the sound stage is what atmos was supposed to be about, and dolby also has front height output options. My receiver has those, so I might experiment with two bookshelf speakers up high. But I'd need to amplify those channels because it's only a pre-out. And I live in earthquake country so they could fall on my head and kill me. Anyway, you have a very nice setup. I like the creativity.

 

[pinnahertz]

Sounds like you agree with me on the basic problem, but just don't like my solution, which Audioholics even suggests as an alternative, because it doesn't have some fancy name like THX attached to it.

The THX name has very little to do with it. The solution is a compromise weighted away from audio quality that Idon't feel is a good one in every situation. The only reason THX has anything to do with it is that their Ultra2 certification guarantees a specific vertical and horizontal dispersion pattern. If there were any other way to do that, I'd be in favor of that as well.

I've enough experience with calibration equipment, EQ, and years of listening to tell myself whether something works or not. I never grew up around price inflated "certified" big name equipment, and always had to get scrappy and build up systems myself by applying science and some creativity. I'm a luckier now to have a well designed comprehensive package now (besides my general complaint against MTM central speakers) but that wasn't always the case. And I've never had qualms about mixing and matching. I've gone through many subs just to find one I'm happy with for music. Anyway, you can keep paying the markup for THX certification, if it means enough to you.

I believe there are other alternatives, but they are far less accessible. Did you search for polar plots of consumer speakers?

The THX badge, to me, is only significant at the Ultra2 level, and even then only with regard to certain aspects. So much of what drove that spec has now been accomplished without it, but there are a few key points.

A little research seems to indicate that Ultra2 is a Klipsch product.

A little more research would be in order. Yes, Klipsch makes an Ultra2 product, they are not the only ones. Do a little more research. Keeping in mind that THX, as an entity, has faltered for several years, their new CEO just left a little while ago, and their focus is, well, blurred. So you may not find a lot of product, but it's not a Klipsch "product" exclusively at all.

You seem to be cramming a single brand down everyone's throats. I've never been a fan of Klipsch.

I'm not a Klipsch fan at all either, in fact, I find most of the line unlistenable. Their KL-525 and KL-650 THX speakers are ok, not my first choice, but at least usable with a bit of custom voicing. The have a small advantage of handling dispersion control with horn design rather than phased drivers.

I'm not cramming any brands down anyone's throat. In fact, with this statement of Klipsch, this would be my first actual mention of a brand.

This is a general multi channel thread, not a brand specific one. If you continue to promote for Ultra 2 I think you will be dulling the power of your own words.

Ultra2 is not a brand, it's a subset of specifications developed by THX. I feel the specifications are still completely valid and important, I don't care too much about which brand elects to achieve them.

I do get that you're at THX hater. That's fine, your choice. There are things about the company that I'm also not a big fan of, but the core engineering is excellent, the reasons for the specifications are completely valid and realistic, and highly beneficial to any listening environment.

THX is a set of performance specifications, with subsets for different levels and market segments. THX also has developed some core technologies, some of them unique and best in their class, others not so unique and bettered by others. I suggest you spend some time on the THX site and learn what they are really all about. THX is not a product, you cannot sell THX, and you cannot go out and buy yourself a box of THX. THX is a means of ensuring the products you buy with the badge have been tested and have met a lengthy list of minimum requirements. If anything, THX is an advocate for the consumer getting the quality he's paying for. Their failings are ones of company image, unclear marketing and poor consumer awareness. Even their trailer, "Let's hear it in THX" is completely misleading. You could never actually do that!

The only thing the badge gets you is a guarantee that those specs have been met, and secondarily, because the specs are not easy to meet, you also get a decent assurance that the product is one of quality. Any brand could be certified, most have just chosen not to be.

 

[pinnahertz]

I agree completely. Knowing the fundamentals and being able to do your own calibration is the best of all worlds, because someone else isn't deciding where to make the compromises for you.

Do you have your car repaired by someone who knows just the fundamentals? How about a bit of surgery? Tell you what, I know the fundamentals of surgery, I've watch a few YouTube videos, and I'm way cheaper than any certified doctor. Want me to take out your appendix?

For 99.9 percent of people putting a home theater together involves the art of compromise.

Absolutely. However, it takes something that 99.9 percent of those people lack to know what compromises help and what ones hurt. That thing they don't have is experience. They'll have some once they're done, and they will have paid for it.

Strict dogma doesn't work unless you are rich enough to build your whole listening room from the ground up.[/SIZE]

Sorry, I don't get the reference to strict dogma.

 

[bigshot]

How does the Brunswick phonograph sound compared to modern stuff? Do you have new cartridges in there or is it all antique?

It's an acoustic phonograph- no electricity- just a spring motor and a horn to amplify it. There's no cartridge. It uses steel needles which look like nails. You change the needle with every record you play. The shellac has an abrasive to wear down the point on the needle to fit the shape of the groove. The needles wear out so the records don't. It's the opposite of vinyl.

The sound is very unique... forward and present. Not a lot of bass, but a super clear midrange.

Do you have your car repaired by someone who knows just the fundamentals?
Sorry, I don't get the reference to strict dogma.

I got a pro to set up my system, but I'm fully capable of maintaining it. I guess since I work on my own home sound system, I don't qualify for Pinnahertz Certification!

Dogma is insisting that you can't really be sure about a 6 or 7dB level error without consulting a professional.

Thinking about this stuff put a bee in my bonnet. I've been wanting to upgrade my rear speakers for some time. Today I stopped by and visited my friendly neighborhood home theater man and he gave me a really good deal on a pair of KEF speakers. I guess I'm upgrading now.

 

[pinnahertz]

Dogma is insisting that you can't really be sure about a 6 or 7dB level error without consulting a professional.

That's not what I said at all. You don't have to be a professional to do a professional grade calibration, but you ain't doin' it with an SPL meter.

All I'm concerned with is getting the best possible performance and using good science to do it.

I'm sorry if my karma ran over your dogma.

 

[bigshot]

I told you several times now that my system was professionally calibrated and you keep telling me it isn't.

 

[Strangelove424]

It's an acoustic phonograph- no electricity- just a spring motor and a horn to amplify it. There's no cartridge. It uses steel needles which look like nails. You change the needle with every record you play. The shellac has an abrasive to wear down the point on the needle to fit the shape of the groove. The needles wear out so the records don't. It's the opposite of vinyl.

The sound is very unique... forward and present. Not a lot of bass, but a super clear midrange.

I got a pro to set up my system, but I'm fully capable of maintaining it. I guess since I work on my own home sound system, I don't qualify for Pinnahertz Certification!

Dogma is insisting that you can't really be sure about a 6 or 7dB level error without consulting a professional.

Thinking about this stuff put a bee in my bonnet. I've been wanting to upgrade my rear speakers for some time. Today I stopped by and visited my friendly neighborhood home theater man and he gave me a really good deal on a pair of KEF speakers. I guess I'm upgrading now.

Thanks for sharing the pictures of the phonograph, and the YouTube link. It looks amazing in the closeups. KEF makes very good stuff, you’re going to love them. I would be counting down the days till delivery if I was you. Congratulations!

I thought I’d post a photo of my setup. It’s a pretty humble one, but it sounds amazing. Great sound doesn’t need to cost a fortune.

The receiver is the cheapest receiver I could get that does Audyssey multiEQ. It’s like a swiss army knife of EQ, level control, and DSP. It even talks to the computer over HDMI so I can easily get high res 5.1 from PC via HDMI. Makes all the complications between sources a lot easier.

Speakers are Pioneer FS-51s for the mains, CS-21 for center, and BS-41s for surrounds. They are affordable and sound amazing.The new models, FS-52, BS-42, etc. were recently released and I hear they sound even better, and have atmos, but I can’t justify an upgrade to myself. I am using a Hsu VTF1-MK2 subwoofer. It took a long time to find one I liked.

I modified a dresser drawer with some bolts to give it a shelf, and put the floorstanders on cinder blocks to raise the tweeter a little closer to ear level. One of the sacrifices for this level of budget was the height of the speaker. The benefit of cinder block is that they’re 99 cents each and have great dampening capabilities. If speaker stands are made of cement anyway, I can spare some aesthetics.

The TV is a basic Vizio but has been calibrated. It doesn’t quite cover the entire color spectrum, but its matte which I still prefer, and I’m never jolted by the difference between it and a calibrated professional IPS monitor, so it’s certainly good enough for entertainment purposes.

I managed to build my system on a budget that would make most audiophiles laugh at me. But you know a system is good if it keeps on surprising you, and years into ownership I am still floored by how incredibly good things can sound. Factor in my headphones and headphone amps, and the entirety of my audio gear is still below what some people have paid for a single headphone. With smart purchasing and implementation, you can get unbelievably good sound nowadays on a very tight budget.

 

[pinnahertz]

I told you several times now that my system was professionally calibrated and you keep telling me it isn't.

Sorry, all I understood was that it was calibrated professionally like 6-7 years ago. Your recent efforts were somewhat less than professional. Unless I misunderstood you.

 

[castleofargh]

Sorry, all I understood was that it was calibrated professionally like 6-7 years ago. Your recent efforts were somewhat less than professional. Unless I misunderstood you.

 

[bigshot]

I once had my whole system on cinder blocks and 3/4 inch plywood. It was VERY stable. My turntable was rock solid. There's nothing at all wrong with a small system if you sit closer. In fact it's easier to get really good quality out of that than to try to scale it up to fill a large room. You're on the right track by optimizing what you have. I've been doing that for forty years now... identifying weak points and addressing them one at a time as I can afford them. The nice thing is that I've stumbled into some great deals, and I've been able to keep the really important things (the speakers). The thing that made the most difference was the studio monitors my brother gave me. He has a McIntosh system that he bought back in the 70s. When he moved, he downsized and gave me his monitors. Now he's running his McIntosh system with bookshelf speakers. I got the best part of his system. The McInstosh is an albatross.

When I finally bought my own house, I decided I wanted a room just for movies and music. The rest of the house is storage of records, DVDs, and books. It helps to be single.

My Yamaha was one of the first models that didn't have Audissey. It has the Yamaha branded auto EQ (YAO?). I tried it, but it really didn't work well. It took a lot of finessing to get it into the range and it didn't work at all with my sub. I run my Mac Mini through my processing loop like you do. I'm in the process of ripping my collection to a batch of disc arrays for instant access organized by Plex. I'm up to 70TB now and I'm adding another 12TB this week. I wish I could get rid of all my physical media and go totally with digital files. Someday.

There are three considerations when you EQ... the room acoustics, the limitations of your transducers, and the variation in engineering of the recordings themselves. All three of those things need to be addressed, and often they pull in opposite directions, requiring intelligent compromises. A basic calibration is a good place to start, but it only addresses some of the issues and not all of them. It's good to know how to EQ yourself so you can fine tune to match your own circumstances. I've worked in production sound and I know my way around an equalizer. I know how to fudge a dB here and two dB there to make my particular sound work better than just a mechanical calibration. I'm not afraid to do that. That's why God put tone controls on amplifiers. I've got a preset that pops me back to calibrated whenever I want to, and I can compare it side by side with my small tweaks to make sure I'm getting what I want. I don't think anyone should be discouraged from adjusting their settings. That's how you learn how sound works and how you can control it. The home theater guys I've worked with understand where I'm coming from and work with me. They don't try to sell me on a system with nothing but a volume control and every other setting locked behind a password gate.That's fine for homes with pesky little kids and grandmothers, but I'm capable of running my own sound system.

"Scarecrow, you had the brains all along... all you need is a DIPLOMA!" Maybe I should have paid the extra money and gotten that THX cert... Then I could just point at it when people who've never heard my system try to tell me what it sounds like.

By the way, is that an 8mm projector on the shelf there? I used to collect film, but I haven't pulled out my projector in a few years. I love the smell of burning dust while I watch movies!

 

[Strangelove424]

The cinder blocks raise the soundstage enough that it doesn’t seem as weirdly low anymore. Not towering, but not diminutive either. I really like what you said earlier about compromise. That is the nature of audio, and life in general. Can’t always have absolute control and absolute best, and a person needs to find the right balance for their situation. You’re right, smaller scale is easier to control. So maybe you don’t hear a lifelike reproduction of a band in scale because you need a bigger room, but you can still hear it with fullness and accuracy. Scale is one of those things I realized you have the least control over in life. A bigger stereo for a bigger room for a bigger house for a bigger price… etc. Scale is something you just need to accept and work around. I’d rather have a healthy banzai tree than a diseased oak. BTW, How is the McIntosh an albatross? Is it too good to ever give up?

Audyssey EQ is very weird. I was expecting to hear tones, but it started making knock-knock-knock noises through each speaker. Then my dog barked, and I had to start all over. Supposedly it measures reflections as well as response. It can also average multiple positions. My readings were all within 3 feet so maybe it doesn’t matter so much for me, but I like the idea of averaging in case of any reflection anomalies in a certain spot. With EQ on I notice a big difference. The default “Audyssey” setting is a little too bass/mid-boosted and gives a lot of the blow-you-out-of-your-seat theatre feeling which I don’t really like, but the “flat” EQ setting is great, and sounds much better than EQ off.

I’ve tried my best to treat the room acoustically the best I can by putting bookshelves near corners, or even hanging thick blankets around like the one under the center speaker. It’s not ideal, but the price for dedicated room treatment is kind of up there. I believe in it, and would like to go with Ethan Winer’s products specifically, I just don’t have the budget for it yet.

Computers really changed things, didn’t they? It’s just insane what can be done nowadays, entire libraries can be accessed from multiple sources, all instantly, all at high quality. It makes my head spin, in a good way. I built a PC a while ago that turned out to be great for multimedia. It’s nearly silent, holds TBs of data, and has multiple audio out options from sound card or GPU. There are so many possibilities nowadays. I just realized yesterday I could plug my RCA outs from the sound card into the receiver’s DVD or AUX port instead of my headphone amp. It was the first time I tried analogue from PC to receiver and the signal strength and clarity were amazing. I’ve owned all this stuff for years and I’m still discovering capabilities. And with each option, comes another choice. The biggest hurdle during any listening session is indecision.

There are still plenty of opportunities for THX certification. Only $1.99 + shipping!

Unfortunately, that is not a real 8mm projector. It was a garage sale find my mom bought for me, and is a sort of art piece or sculpture made from random parts. I’ve since adorned it with more random parts, like an Intel CPU fan on one of its ‘reels’. It’s become the mascot of my theatre system. Wish it was a real one though.

 

[bigshot]

The problem with my brother's McInstosh system is that he spent so much for it back in the day, he feels obligated to keep using it. It sounds great and still works as good as the day he bought all of it, but it's completely impractical for the things we use a sound system for today- no HDMI, no power switching for a TV monitor, no remote control, no multichannel ability, no built in DAC to decode different formats, no video in or out, none of the features we take for granted on current amps. It glows a beautiful aqua color though. Since he bought his system, I've gone through four power amps. Each one had better features than the one it replaced... and all four of them put together cost less than his preamp alone.

I have a huge collection of books, so I use them as room treatment. The front and back walls are covered with bookcases, which do a great job of preventing reflections. On the side walls I use couches and an audiophile grade swordfish.

I rejigger my system sometimes too. Not too long ago, I realized that it was best to channel everything through my Oppo player because it has a really good built in DAC and Darbee image processing. I don't use the switcher on my AV receiver any more. I switch using my player now.

 

[Strangelove424]

Understandable about the McIntosh. The modern hookup options and processing are a huge convenience. The hardest part of switching sources or fiddling with the sound is locating the remote. McIntosh amps are works of art though. The only home theatre I ever saw that stuck out at me from those home theatre magazines was loaded with McIntosh amps and had more of a live stage feel than a movie theatre feel, with taller open space. It was quite nice, with that aqua glow everywhere. Maybe you can use some of your current speakers which will be replaced by the KEFs to make a stereo-only music setup. It could be in the same exact place physically, just run on different source/amp.

Last night it sounded to me over headphones like the computer's DAC was better than the receiver's internal one, but today over speakers I really couldn't tell a difference, even the levels seemed the same. I'm more inclined to 'believe in' the sound card because it came with its own measurements and has a better chip.