I have Custom Art tips and I've tried them with Flares Pro - it's nothing like audiophile foams and one of the worst combinations. Benefits of audiophile foams stem from extremely wide bores and practically zero add length to sound tubes - it's opposite in case of custom tips.
I got the impression that the theory is the continuation of the Flare shape as a smooth transition into the ear canal. Otherwise a completely blunt tip would have been made maybe?
The problem I have with that idea is that it must require the ear canal to be of the perfect size so that the flared opening isn't squashed to some other shape or size. Theory v reality.
So if there can be some way of making a tip which holds the iem in place without any material forward of the opening, that might be much better for a consistent t result between all people.
I can't relate to such sonic differences at all, same when people hear such differences with cables and supports etc. So my default is to assume it's a placebo kind of thing, with blind tests in other fields like wine tasting, violin models etc also throwing up doubts on the differences people experience.
So when it results in drastic action like returning the Flares, I shake my head..
That is just me though, my relationship with the world and this hobby and what I experience, so hopefully you won't take offence to me expressing that, my take on it.
No offence taken
But I think you're wrong. Actually in both cases - differences with cables do exist but not for all headphones and it's not a drastic one but it can be for sensitive ears. For example, let's take FLC8s - there the difference is substantial - I got mine with new, upgraded and "better" cable (berfore the purchase I had the old version for tests) and I though I got faulty unit but it turns out, switching cables to the old, less purer copper, fixed them. Then I tried silver and it was an actual upgrade, after that I've tested other cables and each was audibly different. I have to highlight something - I don't think that more expensive is better or that it makes any sense to buy 500$ cable. No it doesn't but from my experience at least some headphones sound different with different cable.
When it comes to tips though... Wow, placebo effect? The differences are huge! With wrong tips, even great, expensive IEMs can sound terrible and worse than decent 20$ product. Some IEMs are less sensitive to various tips, some are extremely sensitive but it makes a difference with all of them. And it's usually not a subtle difference - you don't have to be experienced "audiophile" with great hearing, this is something most people will easily hear.
The key part is to get a good seal but that's not all - material, shape also play a big role here. And of course there are our own anatomical differences which also plays a role with IEMs. It's way easier with full-sized cans - no such troubles there
I'll repeat myself but to my ears old Flares sound great only with Comply foam and I've searched and searched for alternative becouse Comply's some flaws. Why would I possible forced myself to think that there's difference? Placebo doesn't even make sense here. I understand that someone who have invested lots of money in new cable may force himself to "hear" the difference but it tips selection there's no logic behind it and once again the differences can be huge.
The arguments start because someone so strongly believes that what the hear is real and that in no way can they be wrong because they definately experience it.. Happens in all areas of life. Similarly because I don't hear that at all and logically and scientifically I can find no reason for it to be real other than placebo, I also have strong belief that I am correct.
The circular arguments arise on fourms when we tell the other that they are wrong, as you just did.
I tried to get around that by acknowledging the difference in personal experience whilst expressing how I relate to it myself in the opposite way. Why would I be wrong and you right or why would you be right and I wrong? All a matter of belief that ones' world they experience is the correct one, despite that experience being contradicted by the next person..
We should stop the subjective/objective talk though, else the thread will go off and mods get involved. I shall stop myself now!
I don't think tips and cables are comparable to each other. Tips have to interface with our anatomy. Think all of the silicone tips are suspect. If they are not almost the exactly correct size they have to "fold" to fit. Once they fold, the chance of a perfect seal is iffy.
Even foam tips aren't perfect. Bought a bunch of Comply foam ear tips at closeout prices for the Flare R2Pro. Was shocked to find they don't sound anything alike in the bass. There is less bass with the closeout. Apparently the rougher, non coated foam doesn't seal as well as the original smooth coated foam.
An IEM that is too bassy can be tuned by allowing a small amount of leakage. This can be achieved by inserting a small sliver of silcone between the nozzle and the attachment point of the tip. Less leakage means more bass.
Even custom tips change sound over time. A perfect fit now won't be in the future. Ears never stop growing. Custom tips only fit for 3-6 years.
@LuckyNat You're missing the point. I hear it, you don't - it's simple. There's no reason why we both couldn't be right. There's no need to bring philosophy - I think we can skip the metaphysics in this little dispute.
I hear it - like I've said it's not subtle, it's not a subject of believe. The fact that I read what you wrote is not a matter of believing even if a blind man wouldn't be able to do that. He can use the same argument. No disrespect.
Besides - we have a polite discussion, why mods have to be involved ? It's not popular enough thread to get their interest and we're discussing very important aspects of Flares.
And I think Flare would strongly disagree with you that there's no scientific reasons behind it. They brah about it a lot. I'm not acoustic engineering major so I'm not gonna go this way....
I think it's a first time anyone is arguing the influence of tips on sound. I though it was well established and obvious.
I agree that tip rolling with IEM's has real benefits. I find that different tips work better on different IEM's. For instance, I didn't like spinfit tips with my Dunu DN-2000j's, but like them with comply's, and the opposite with my Noble X's. However, like all things in this hobby, YMMV.
On topic, I've been listening to my Flares Pros for a couple of days now and really love the sound. Nice soundstage, details, and decent bass. Hopefully, they'll get even better over time!
I agree with awayeah with my personal experience. Granted, the Flare's are my first foray into IEM's, so it took me a while to figure out what I needed to do to get a good seal, and the easiest way to insert the IEM's. Part of that journey was trying different tips, in hopes of finding easier tips to work with as well as more durable. That journey showed how much of a difference the tips make, at least with the Flares. Any silicon tips I tried sounded brittle, sibilant and lacked the warm body on the low end that I experience with the comply's and it wasn't even a small change. It was like going from the old white iPod earbuds to a nice set of Sennhieser Over the Ear cans like the HD 650's. Now, that's my experience, and my ears may not like the sealing of silicon products, but I couldn't find one that worked for me, that came close to the comply's. I tried different sizes of complys and different styles and settled on the medium comfort ones that are easier to insert and remove, and feel more comfortable, yet get a great seal every time. Every ear I'm sure is different, but the experience showed me, there is no argument that tips make a difference in how an IEM will perform. There was a reason why the Flares came with the Comply's. they were engineered with them in mind, for the best sound.
@LuckyNat You're missing the point. I hear it, you don't - it's simple. There's no reason why we both couldn't be right. There's no need to bring philosophy - I think we can skip the metaphysics in this little dispute.
I hear it - like I've said it's not subtle, it's not a subject of believe. The fact that I read what you wrote is not a matter of believing even if a blind man wouldn't be able to do that. He can use the same argument. No disrespect.
Besides - we have a polite discussion, why mods have to be involved ? It's not popular enough thread to get their interest and we're discussing very important aspects of Flares.
And I think Flare would strongly disagree with you that there's no scientific reasons behind it. They brah about it a lot. I'm not acoustic engineering major so I'm not gonna go this way....
I think it's a first time anyone is arguing the influence of tips on sound. I though it was well established and obvious.
I have been attempting to order the Flares Pro from their website, but cannot find a link to place my order. All the other products show an order link, but clicking on the Flares Pro image simply takes me back to the description page where there is no method of placing an order. I have sent an email to Flare, but as yet have not received a reply.
EDIT: Apparently this is a Chrome issue, as I was able to place my order successfully using Opera.
Hopefully, these will live up to the positive impressions submitted thus far.
I have been attempting to order the Flares Pro from their website, but cannot find a link to place my order. All the other products show an order link, but clicking on the Flares Pro image simply takes me back to the description page where there is no method of placing an order. I have sent an email to Flare, but as yet have not received a reply.
EDIT: Apparently this is a Chrome issue, as I was able to place my order successfully using Opera.
Hopefully, these will live up to the positive impressions submitted thus far.
I am very interested in these, so will be good to hear your impressions.
Also would be great to hear more comparisons to other iems and possibly where they stand ish in the sub £500 maybe £1000 range.....so tempted to click buy just waiting for a few more comparisons.
Cheers guys.
I agree with awayeah with my personal experience. Granted, the Flare's are my first foray into IEM's, so it took me a while to figure out what I needed to do to get a good seal, and the easiest way to insert the IEM's. Part of that journey was trying different tips, in hopes of finding easier tips to work with as well as more durable. That journey showed how much of a difference the tips make, at least with the Flares. Any silicon tips I tried sounded brittle, sibilant and lacked the warm body on the low end that I experience with the comply's and it wasn't even a small change. It was like going from the old white iPod earbuds to a nice set of Sennhieser Over the Ear cans like the HD 650's. Now, that's my experience, and my ears may not like the sealing of silicon products, but I couldn't find one that worked for me, that came close to the comply's. I tried different sizes of complys and different styles and settled on the medium comfort ones that are easier to insert and remove, and feel more comfortable, yet get a great seal every time. Every ear I'm sure is different, but the experience showed me, there is no argument that tips make a difference in how an IEM will perform. There was a reason why the Flares came with the Comply's. they were engineered with them in mind, for the best sound.
If that were what Awayeah were saying, I would agree too!
How well tips fit your ear canal can make a big difference.
On a level playing field - each foam tip fitting and sealing perfectly - I don't think there will be much difference between tips at all. My experience with tip rolling has shown that once they appear to fit, differences are small and only in the treble response. But moving the iem around, once in my ear can have a stronger effect as they fire the sound in slightly different directions compared to my ear canals and the tips.
If you have a tip that doesn't work with your own ears, then it can change the sound in all sorts of ways. Most people have different size / shape ears between left and right. If a tip fits one ear better than the other then soundstage will be effected. It's simple.
One can choose to wrap these simple effects of fitment into some fancy sound descriptions and emotive qualities if one likes but it does distance your thinking from the simple problem which can then lead on to, in my opinion unjustified, complex theories and perceptions of what one hears. That then can lead one to hear things because they fit the complex theory when perhaps they are also present in those that don't fit the complex theory, or dismiss tips immediately because of the complex theory when actually they weren't put in your ears properly and would have sounded great if they had.
Tip 'sound' is a combination of ear + tip and what that combo can take AWAY from the sound. Essentially the iem is out of the equation and for me , any idea that tip + iem positively creates a sound doesn't gel with me at all.
These Flares 'audiophile' tips simply don't fit very easily in some people's ear, including mine, and probably never will. But I'll never know because they are impractically delicate and are now ripped up after one use. I wouldn't return the amazing sounding iem though because of them!
@LuckyNat You're missing the point. I hear it, you don't - it's simple. There's no reason why we both couldn't be right. There's no need to bring philosophy - I think we can skip the metaphysics in this little dispute.
.
That is kind of showing that you missed my point I'm afraid. We may hear exactly the same thing but you may believe it sounded one way and I believe it sounded another way. It is all a matter of belief, believing that our brains translate things accurately and not make things up. Brains both makes things up and Ignore things that are really there... based on our expectations, based on beliefs. Neurology tends to show that we live in a world of imagination at ALL times
Mods can unfortunately be very strict on thread drift to generalised topics.. so we have to kind of make each post relate to the Flares..
That is kind of showing that you missed my point I'm afraid. We may hear exactly the same thing but you may believe it sounded one way and I believe it sounded another way. It is all a matter of belief, believing that our brains translate things accurately and not make things up. Brains both makes things up and Ignore things that are really there... based on our expectations, based on beliefs. Neurology tends to show that we live in a world of imagination at ALL times
Mods can unfortunately be very strict on thread drift to generalised topics.. so we have to kind of make each post relate to the Flares..
I didn't miss the point. There's a difference between subtle changes that may or may not exist and we tell ourself that they do exist and between things so obvious that it's not a matter of belief.
Getting a good seal is of course a must but material and apparently shape also play a big role too (not always though).
I'm all about logic - believe me. I'm an engineer and a technology transfer specialst working with top scientists in my country. The difference that tips make is comparable to differences between black levels of LCD (without local dimming) and OLED in completely dark room - you can make the same argument that my brain make things up and LCD has perfect black. It's just not true.
Well back to the subject - here's a take on tips importance and their influence on sound from Flare Audio themself:
I'm assuming they're not idiots like me and they don't force themself to hear something that's simply not there
Their star-based analysis of their own tips that have various price points and aimed at people who are willing to spend more on the one claiming better sound quality (which by coincidence, is apparently going to be the most expensive... what a coincidence! Must be a physics thing, that no matter what the important quality is, the product with the better quality in that specific area has always higher production cost, even just foam tip with plastic core) doesn't seem to be any real judgement of anything to me other than Flare's wishes for their products.
As others in the thread have noted, the silicon tips sound awful! I suspect they don't go in my ear properly or hold the iem well enough not to deform and have the iem pointing up due to gravity. So the idea that they sound better than the memory foam ones is just crazy to me and others. I suspect though that they will sell both silicon and audiophile tips themselves at relatively high prices and are in too much competition to expect to sell many universal ones. Hence the placing of the foam ones at the bottom of the pile sound-wise.
Their own star rating indicates to me that they experience very slight differences between the tips. I feel like I've read them state somewhere too that the differences are small but noticeable (not massive at all). I'll have to remember where I saw that.
Audiophile tips : Durability 3 stars hahahaha! Can't change them to try a different size or they rip apart. Can't spin them in your ear slightly to adjust comfort... or they rip straight away. Such a terrible material choice.
I wonder if there are any Flare Audio representatives here on Head-Fi who are active at all in this thread. I used the contact form on their website several days ago asking a few questions politely of course, but they never responded to me.
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