[Dobrescu George]

One thing I don't understand is the drive towards super slim devices from all of these manufacturers. I'd rather they made it 10% fatter and give another 50% battery life...

 
I'd rather make it 50% thicker and give it 300% battery life 

 

[snellemin]

I prefer a thinner design.  8 hours is more than enough.  I'm old school.  I am used to the Sony cassette and mini disk era, where you only had a single AA battery to deal with.  

 

[Sonic Defender]

  I prefer a thinner design.  8 hours is more than enough.  I'm old school.  I am used to the Sony cassette and mini disk era, where you only had a single AA battery to deal with.  

Kind of the same here as portability and form factor is a consideration for me in such devices. I am also not the type of person who listens for hours on end so reasonable battery life is enough for me, but I get those who need more time.

 

[AudioJimmy]

I was wondering if you need a driver for Windows when you connect the Q5 to the PC via USB?
 
I just can't wait for this piece to finally be available...!!! 
 
Still no clue when it will be released?

 

[demond]

  I was wondering if you need a driver for Windows when you connect the Q5 to the PC via USB?
 
I just can't wait for this piece to finally be available...!!! 
 
Still no clue when it will be released?

Yes, Q5 need a driver as a USB DAC connect the Q5 to the PC,
But we already have a driver, just like FiiO DAP USB DAC driver.

 

[AudioJimmy]

Yes, Q5 need a driver as a USB DAC connect the Q5 to the PC,
But we already have a driver, just like FiiO DAP USB DAC driver.

Thanks demond.
I would use the Q5 at work and unfortunately I am not allowed to download nor install any driver...
Will see what I can do.

 

[peterzzz]

Thanks demond.
I would use the Q5 at work and unfortunately I am not allowed to download nor install any driver...
Will see what I can do.

Supposedly the latest versions of win10 have a native USB audio class 2 driver (which is what one would need). So if your workplace is all up-to-date (many are not, I know) then it might just work.

 

[TheEldestBoy]

I'm eagerly awaiting this product as well.
 
Fiio mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that they were finalizing the sound signature of the Q5 around mid-April, so we should soon be one step closer to having the Q5 in our hands 

 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

One thing I don't understand is the drive towards super slim devices from all of these manufacturers. I'd rather they made it 10% fatter and give another 50% battery life...

 
10% fatter alone even with creaetive packaging of the components will be unlikely to yield 50% more battery life.
 
USB charging is more useful since you can have a powerbank on you, and instead of being permanently x% fatter, you only hook it up to charge. This is an amp that most people will use with a phone, not the phone itself, so chances are if you're going to strap on something like this, you can lug around a powerbank, something each of us might already have because of how that problematic idea of slimmer with less battery life has affected phones as we use them.

 

[A2029]

10% fatter alone even with creaetive packaging of the components will be unlikely to yield 50% more battery life.

USB charging is more useful since you can have a powerbank on you, and instead of being permanently x% fatter, you only hook it up to charge. This is an amp that most people will use with a phone, not the phone itself, so chances are if you're going to strap on something like this, you can lug around a powerbank, something each of us might already have because of how that problematic idea of slimmer with less battery life has affected phones as we use them.

Thing is, if the components inside the case stay the same size, and the thickness of the walls of the casing stay the same thickness, then all of the additional thickness/fatness could be put directly to increasing the size of the battery. Fiio could also increase thickness by 10-30%, and increase overall case dimensions (in X and Y planes) by some percentage, and make the battery much bigger. NOTE: I'm not talking about a massive increase in case size, only an increase sufficient enough to give e.g. 15-24 hours of battery life.

There are three positives to having a bigger battery with longer life:

1) More run time for each charge.

2) More time between recharge cycles means less recharge cycles. As lithium batteries show degrading battery life the more recharge cycles, it would be better to put less cycles on the battery over time. A smaller battery leads to a disposable product 2-3 years down the road if it is recharged often, and if no replacement batteries are easily available from Fiio.

3) No need to carry a power bank with you to recharge the Q5.

demond Can you comment on the choice of battery capacity?

 

[snellemin]

Thing is, if the components inside the case stay the same size, and the thickness of the walls of the casing stay the same thickness, then all of the additional thickness/fatness could be put directly to increasing the size of the battery. Fiio could also increase thickness by 10-30%, and increase overall case dimensions (in X and Y planes) by some percentage, and make the battery much bigger. NOTE: I'm not talking about a massive increase in case size, only an increase sufficient enough to give e.g. 15-24 hours of battery life.

There are three positives to having a bigger battery with longer life:

1) More run time for each charge.

2) More time between recharge cycles means less recharge cycles. As lithium batteries show degrading battery life the more recharge cycles, it would be better to put less cycles on the battery over time. A smaller battery leads to a disposable product 2-3 years down the road if it is recharged often, and if no replacement batteries are easily available from Fiio.

3) No need to carry a power bank with you to recharge the Q5.

@demond Can you comment on the choice of battery capacity?

You do know that more material cost more, thus cutting into your profits in the market you are targeting.  In 2-3 years there will be something "better" for equal or less money.  I have 5 year old devices that still run on their original batteries. Manage your batteries and they will last longer. Fiio is not going to invest any more money once the dimension are set and dies are made.  

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Thing is, if the components inside the case stay the same size, and the thickness of the walls of the casing stay the same thickness, then all of the additional thickness/fatness could be put directly to increasing the size of the battery. Fiio could also increase thickness by 10-30%, and increase overall case dimensions (in X and Y planes) by some percentage, and make the battery much bigger. NOTE: I'm not talking about a massive increase in case size, only an increase sufficient enough to give e.g. 15-24 hours of battery life.

 

OK, obviously you didn't even try to understand what I said about "creative packaging." So I'm gonna draw it in (digital) crayon and show you the problem.

 

Diagrams on top are a sample portable amp. No DAC circuit occupying one side of the battery running from rear panel USB to the amp circuit in front. You made the assertion that 10% thicker chassis with all other components the same size will give you a large enough battery to get 50% more battery life, which, we should assume for simplicity's sake, would need roughly a 50% larger battery.

 

Amp to the right is roughly 30% thicker (black box) because this is a PITA to draw. All circuit components (red - PCB, pot, diode/chip heatsink, and power cap visible) are the same size. Original battery size (blue) is slightly enlarged (purple), but there is unused space (teal) above the components red) that remained the same size. You are not accounting for how the battery is a single cell unit to keep parts and assembly costs down. At best, a 30% thicker chassis is needed to get you a roughly 30% larger battery for roughly 30% more battery life. And that assumes that manufacturers will find a battery that exact size rather than leave space around it, or design the amp in such a way as to maximize space around such a larger battery.

 

Amps are not made with the same costs and volume sales to recoup investments as laptops (bottom diagrams). More traditional 12in workstation "ultraportable" laptop from a few years ago on the left has a wide, thick, but otherwise not too large battery to the rear, with the motherboard (red) to the front and there is a cooling fan for the CPU heatpipe (light blue), and an optical drive to the right (yellow), and an HDD sandwiched between them. On the right is a Core M laptop like the Macbook 12in and hybrid Lenovo Yoga series powered by the same kind of processor (Yoga is used even for more traditional laptops as long as it is also has a hybrid tablet mode). Motherboard (red) is wider but shorter front to rear, has an M.2 drive (green) which along with the absence of an optical drive, saves space. These newer laptops depending on packaging might have a large battery pack with two or three cells to fill up the space around the motherboard (Macbook 12 mobo is actually outflanked by battery cells). Multi-cell battery packs aren't as standard as you'd think, and apart from some portable amps that basically used several AA or AAA batteries bundled together, isn't really a thing that's feasible on these products.
 

 

Bottom line: even without accounting for actual volume (which will actually net you less gains), a thicker chassis isn't going to get you as much battery life as you think. Not to mention that your 10% = 50% more battery life is physically impossible given the same battery technology, as well as how, if your starting battery life is 8hours, "15 to 24 hours" isn't exactly "50% more."
 

3) No need to carry a power bank with you to recharge the Q5.

 

You also missed another point. Given the proportions discussed above, and the reality that people nowadays tend to have a powerbank for their phone anyway, charging the Q5 from it rather than dealing with the increased size of the Q5 makes sense to many. Instead of having a more realistic 50% thicker amp for 50% more battery life you can just have a slim 10500mAh powerbank to charge your phone and the Q5 only when you need it, rather than have the Q5 permanently that thick. Yes, phones can have longer battery life if they weren't squeezing too slim batteries in them, doesn't mean that a 50% thicker phone will net you 50% more battery life. 

 

2) More time between recharge cycles means less recharge cycles. As lithium batteries show degrading battery life the more recharge cycles, it would be better to put less cycles on the battery over time. A smaller battery leads to a disposable product 2-3 years down the road if it is recharged often, and if no replacement batteries are easily available from Fiio.

 

 

Actually good quality lithium batteries will last longer. Cahre cycles number in the thousands if not tens of thousands. What actually increases wear is heat, not simply from tightly packed components, but on how you recharge. If you always recharge while the device is in use, then that's a problem since it puts a continuous drain-charge-drain cycle, and it's not simply from that action alone but due to heat build up in the process. Too fast chargers also have a similar though no longer as severe impact (ie not like with NiMH batteries). In short, switch it off, charge it as often as you can and keep the battery full. Even if you have to sleep and leave it plugged in since presumably it has overcharge protection and if the amp is off then there won't be continuous cycling.

 

If anything the more real problem is whether Fiio will maintain a supply of the batteries. Even  if the batteries were larger but you charge while in use you'd still wear it out sooner and end up neeeding a replacement anyway. This is a bigger concern than using a bigger battery unless we're talking about a really short battery life on a single charge, like the Lisa amps.

 

[Dobrescu George]

 

 

OK, obviously you didn't even try to understand what I said about "creative packaging." So I'm gonna draw it in (digital) crayon and show you the problem.

 

Diagrams on top are a sample portable amp. No DAC circuit occupying one side of the battery running from rear panel USB to the amp circuit in front. You made the assertion that 10% thicker chassis with all other components the same size will give you a large enough battery to get 50% more battery life, which, we should assume for simplicity's sake, would need roughly a 50% larger battery.

 

Amp to the right is roughly 30% thicker (black box) because this is a PITA to draw. All circuit components (red - PCB, pot, diode/chip heatsink, and power cap visible) are the same size. Original battery size (blue) is slightly enlarged (purple), but there is unused space (teal) above the components red) that remained the same size. You are not accounting for how the battery is a single cell unit to keep parts and assembly costs down. At best, a 30% thicker chassis is needed to get you a roughly 30% larger battery for roughly 30% more battery life. And that assumes that manufacturers will find a battery that exact size rather than leave space around it, or design the amp in such a way as to maximize space around such a larger battery.

 

Amps are not made with the same costs and volume sales to recoup investments as laptops (bottom diagrams). More traditional 12in workstation "ultraportable" laptop from a few years ago on the left has a wide, thick, but otherwise not too large battery to the rear, with the motherboard (red) to the front and there is a cooling fan for the CPU heatpipe (light blue), and an optical drive to the right (yellow), and an HDD sandwiched between them. On the right is a Core M laptop like the Macbook 12in and hybrid Lenovo Yoga series powered by the same kind of processor (Yoga is used even for more traditional laptops as long as it is also has a hybrid tablet mode). Motherboard (red) is wider but shorter front to rear, has an M.2 drive (green) which along with the absence of an optical drive, saves space. These newer laptops depending on packaging might have a large battery pack with two or three cells to fill up the space around the motherboard (Macbook 12 mobo is actually outflanked by battery cells). Multi-cell battery packs aren't as standard as you'd think, and apart from some portable amps that basically used several AA or AAA batteries bundled together, isn't really a thing that's feasible on these products.
 

 

Bottom line: even without accounting for actual volume (which will actually net you less gains), a thicker chassis isn't going to get you as much battery life as you think. Not to mention that your 10% = 50% more battery life is physically impossible given the same battery technology, as well as how, if your starting battery life is 8hours, "15 to 24 hours" isn't exactly "50% more."
 

 

You also missed another point. Given the proportions discussed above, and the reality that people nowadays tend to have a powerbank for their phone anyway, charging the Q5 from it rather than dealing with the increased size of the Q5 makes sense to many. Instead of having a more realistic 50% thicker amp for 50% more battery life you can just have a slim 10500mAh powerbank to charge your phone and the Q5 only when you need it, rather than have the Q5 permanently that thick. Yes, phones can have longer battery life if they weren't squeezing too slim batteries in them, doesn't mean that a 50% thicker phone will net you 50% more battery life. 

 
 

 

Actually good quality lithium batteries will last longer. Cahre cycles number in the thousands if not tens of thousands. What actually increases wear is heat, not simply from tightly packed components, but on how you recharge. If you always recharge while the device is in use, then that's a problem since it puts a continuous drain-charge-drain cycle, and it's not simply from that action alone but due to heat build up in the process. Too fast chargers also have a similar though no longer as severe impact (ie not like with NiMH batteries). In short, switch it off, charge it as often as you can and keep the battery full. Even if you have to sleep and leave it plugged in since presumably it has overcharge protection and if the amp is off then there won't be continuous cycling.

 

If anything the more real problem is whether Fiio will maintain a supply of the batteries. Even  if the batteries were larger but you charge while in use you'd still wear it out sooner and end up neeeding a replacement anyway. This is a bigger concern than using a bigger battery unless we're talking about a really short battery life on a single charge, like the Lisa amps.

 
This was interesting! 

I do think that bigger batteries should be a priority! It would help us if we stop chasing the slimmest and we start chasing the best! 

 

[A2029]

OK, obviously you didn't even try to understand what I said about "creative packaging." So I'm gonna draw it in (digital) crayon and show you the problem.

Diagrams on top are a sample portable amp. No DAC circuit occupying one side of the battery running from rear panel USB to the amp circuit in front. You made the assertion that 10% thicker chassis with all other components the same size will give you a large enough battery to get 50% more battery life, which, we should assume for simplicity's sake, would need roughly a 50% larger battery.

Amp to the right is roughly 30% thicker (black box) because this is a PITA to draw. All circuit components (red - PCB, pot, diode/chip heatsink, and power cap visible) are the same size. Original battery size (blue) is slightly enlarged (purple), but there is unused space (teal) above the components red) that remained the same size. You are not accounting for how the battery is a single cell unit to keep parts and assembly costs down. At best, a 30% thicker chassis is needed to get you a roughly 30% larger battery for roughly 30% more battery life. And that assumes that manufacturers will find a battery that exact size rather than leave space around it, or design the amp in such a way as to maximize space around such a larger battery.

Amps are not made with the same costs and volume sales to recoup investments as laptops (bottom diagrams). More traditional 12in workstation "ultraportable" laptop from a few years ago on the left has a wide, thick, but otherwise not too large battery to the rear, with the motherboard (red) to the front and there is a cooling fan for the CPU heatpipe (light blue), and an optical drive to the right (yellow), and an HDD sandwiched between them. On the right is a Core M laptop like the Macbook 12in and hybrid Lenovo Yoga series powered by the same kind of processor (Yoga is used even for more traditional laptops as long as it is also has a hybrid tablet mode). Motherboard (red) is wider but shorter front to rear, has an M.2 drive (green) which along with the absence of an optical drive, saves space. These newer laptops depending on packaging might have a large battery pack with two or three cells to fill up the space around the motherboard (Macbook 12 mobo is actually outflanked by battery cells). Multi-cell battery packs aren't as standard as you'd think, and apart from some portable amps that basically used several AA or AAA batteries bundled together, isn't really a thing that's feasible on these products.




Bottom line: even without accounting for actual volume (which will actually net you less gains), a thicker chassis isn't going to get you as much battery life as you think. Not to mention that your 10% = 50% more battery life is physically impossible given the same battery technology, as well as how, if your starting battery life is 8hours, "15 to 24 hours" isn't exactly "50% more."


You also missed another point. Given the proportions discussed above, and the reality that people nowadays tend to have a powerbank for their phone anyway, charging the Q5 from it rather than dealing with the increased size of the Q5 makes sense to many. Instead of having a more realistic 50% thicker amp for 50% more battery life you can just have a slim 10500mAh powerbank to charge your phone and the Q5 only when you need it, rather than have the Q5 permanently that thick. Yes, phones can have longer battery life if they weren't squeezing too slim batteries in them, doesn't mean that a 50% thicker phone will net you 50% more battery life. 



Actually good quality lithium batteries will last longer. Cahre cycles number in the thousands if not tens of thousands. What actually increases wear is heat, not simply from tightly packed components, but on how you recharge. If you always recharge while the device is in use, then that's a problem since it puts a continuous drain-charge-drain cycle, and it's not simply from that action alone but due to heat build up in the process. Too fast chargers also have a similar though no longer as severe impact (ie not like with NiMH batteries). In short, switch it off, charge it as often as you can and keep the battery full. Even if you have to sleep and leave it plugged in since presumably it has overcharge protection and if the amp is off then there won't be continuous cycling.

If anything the more real problem is whether Fiio will maintain a supply of the batteries. Even  if the batteries were larger but you charge while in use you'd still wear it out sooner and end up neeeding a replacement anyway. This is a bigger concern than using a bigger battery unless we're talking about a really short battery life on a single charge, like the Lisa amps.

Hi, thank you for your reply. I'm not trying to stir up any reactions or cause any trouble. And I didn't mean the "10% thicker" thing as an absolute (I.e. I threw out these random numbers simply as a means to denote the problem with ultra-thin devices sacrificing battery life). I was just meaning to say that nowendays slimness is being prioritized to a greater degree than some other features, such as extended battery life. What I should have said originally many posts back is:

"For my usage, and IMO, I wish electronics manufacturers would design portable electronics such that their battery life would last a full day (I'd like the battery life to last from when I wake up, until when I go to bed, a total of 16hrs) and be able to have at least this battery life 2 years down the road. I'd personally rather buy a thicker and larger device and have the feature of a long battery life and less worries about finding a charger to use mid-day or carrying a Powerbank along with me all day."

As Fiio seems to be going with the slimmer and shorter battery life approach in this case, and my above reply is therefore rhetorical, I agree that the real main problem is simply whether Fiio will maintain a replacement battery supply years down the road.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
This was interesting! 

I do think that bigger batteries should be a priority! It would help us if we stop chasing the slimmest and we start chasing the best! 

 

Like I said though, it's not that I mean that every device should be on the downward spiral race to the bottom in being slimmer, but compromises between size and battery life aren't as straight cut proportional as "10% thicker = 50% more batt life." It's not as linear much less as drastic as that. That's the reason why, up to a point, manufacturers will have a tendency to just stick with a slimmer amp rather than the diminishing returns for size to gain battery life.
 

Hi, thank you for your reply. I'm not trying to stir up any reactions or cause any trouble. 

 
And I'm just explaining things with more detail.
 

And I didn't mean the "10% thicker" thing as an absolute (I.e. I threw out these random numbers simply as a means to denote the problem with ultra-thin devices sacrificing battery life). I was just meaning to say that nowendays slimness is being prioritized to a greater degree than some other features, such as extended battery life.

 
And like what I pointed about at the beginning of this post and in my prior posts in this exchange is that the relationship between size and battery life isn't linear, even if you're not thinking of such a graph as 10x = 50y. Fiio for example can weight their options and realize that making it thick enough to make appreciable gains in battery life would mean that they'd take a hit on other things, like parts or assembly cost, which then raises the price.
 
Take the RSA Intruder as an example. It's not that much larger than a CMOY (it might be even smaller than 2ch SE designs), but has waaaaay longer battery life than the Fiio. But you have to pay $700 and still get a chassis with corners that scuff easily and is still too big for anybody's pockets unless they were 1990s pants. Fiio is thinking less of somebody with at least a camera compartment in his laptop bag to lug around a transportable rig and somebody who can just stash it in a soft material-lined area in a bag, if not pocket it and have other stuff elsewhere.
 
And again they're banking (teehee) on everybody having a powerbank for their phones anyway, which is great when you're using USB charging.
 
Quote:

What I should have said originally many posts back is:

"For my usage, and IMO, I wish electronics manufacturers would design portable electronics such that their battery life would last a full day (I'd like the battery life to last from when I wake up, until when I go to bed, a total of 16hrs) and be able to have at least this battery life 2 years down the road. I'd personally rather buy a thicker and larger device and have the feature of a long battery life and less worries about finding a charger to use mid-day or carrying a Powerbank along with me all day."

 

And like I said, everything is a compromise between price, performance, build quality, usability and ergonomics. You can get performance, build quality, and battery life in the RSA Intruder, but you'd have to sacrifice ergonomics (ie the corners make it a lot less pocketable; if RSA went for a chassis like what Fiio is investing in, he'd have to either sell as many, or jack up the price even more) and you need to shell out $700.

 

And again what Fiio was banking on was that people would already have a powerbank with them all day anyway - does your phone last all day running all cellular functions plus a music player (and heck, what if it requires 4G for Spotify or Tidal, or Neutron's DSP) and USB or, hell, BT output to the Q5? I'm going to bet it doesn't, and likely Fiio thought, "meh, their phone's won't last that long, they'd have a powerbank on them."

Same thing with the X5III. It has a battery life longer than the Teclast T51 while being more responsive (ie not a laggy, slow UI) while having even better audio components (ie it outputs more power). I'd personally lug around a powerbank to recharge a smartphone and the X5III (because I scratched my plans to get a Q5 when that came out) than have the X5III the size of a HiFiMan or Colorfly flagship player which won't fit in a single pocket, while the powerbank is in my laptop bag. So again there's the segmentation and pocketability. And as with the alternate option for you to get the Intruder, if you ever look into DAPs and prefer size over segmentation and powerbanks, there's the AK380.

 

Put another way, it's not like all manufacturers forgot about people who prefer to do it your way, you're just in the wrong thread looking at the wrong manufacturer who isn't doing things your way. Again - RSA Intruder and in case you change your mind to getting a DAP, AK380. Think of it another way: if what I wanted out of a car was that it can seat four people plus luggage, have lots of torque and horsepower, won't cost a hell of a lot of money on fuel, etc, I won't be looking at Fiio's Toyota. I'd look at RSA's Tesla Model S, a quad electric motor, all wheel drive, five passenger midsize sports sedan that can go 400mi on a single charge. But I can't just stop at any Shell, no - I'm gonna have to plan my roadtrip so I can stop at charging stations.

 

As Fiio seems to be going with the slimmer and shorter battery life approach in this case, and my above reply is therefore rhetorical, I agree that the real main problem is simply whether Fiio will maintain a replacement battery supply years down the road.

 

Yes this is the bigger problem, but like I said, frequent cycles don't wear out the battery as much (over time anyway - just how many times do you charge in a single day to get past the 5,000 proper cycle life?) as heat build up and other manner of improper maintenance.