[up late]

No nerves are touch, but the argument is rather round looking at the moment with nothing particularly new being added if you just drop a link.

Here's a life lesson that everyone should take to heart - the thing about arguing what is clearly a subjective opinion is that the more heated you make your point the more it makes you look like a self-righteous pomp. I think most people who own the Z1R aren't new to the hobby and knows what a flat FR neutral headphone sounds like and can appreciate the technical difficulty in making an accurate sounding phone, this however takes nothing away from the personal subjective preference for something that is NOT neutral nor accurate, and these subjective preferences are arguably the very foundation of this hobby. We have the revival of vinyls and analog tapes which has worse SNR than digital formats, tube amps with poor harmonic distortion measurements and noise floor compared to (sometimes much cheaper) SS devices, heck even at the very beginning of the entire musical chain where artists deliberately boost their guitar amps to cause distortion in the sound, none of these acts or devices aims for the accurate sound reproduction but rather the subjective "sound quality" of personal preference.

BTW I think it is pretty hypocritical for Tyll putting down the Z1R for poor measurements when he has a few tube amps on his wall of fame (and completely gashing over them) while also not showing measurements for those amps and the tubes, preciously for the reason I have pointed out above. So really is he not just preferring his imperfection/distortion in a different part of the chain (eg if someone is using his ruler flat HD800 on a tube amp to "flavour" the sound with harmonic distortion, why is that more preferable/superior than someone who uses a ruler flat SS amp with the Z1R)? Then why single out headphones? Or even one headphone in particular? This doesn't make you look like much of an objectivist.

folks attach links to posts all the time without explanation. mine might cause some controversy in this particular thread but it is topical.

and with respect, i don't think that your "life lesson" applies to me.

 

[nanaholic]

folks attach links to posts all the time without explanation. mine might cause some controversy in this particular thread but it is topical.

Notice I never said it's off topic, but rather I'm saying dropping that link and the content of that link adds nothing new to the conversation. Two different issues.

and with respect, i don't think that your "life lesson" applies to me.

And with respect, It most certainly applies to everyone if you've ever engaged in an argument - in real life when you argue heatedly on a subjective topic one side usually just "agree to disagree" or change the topic altogether first to avoid further conflict, people often mistake that as a surrendering but really underlying no opinions are changed. You think you've "won" the argument, but deeply the other side just called you a dick inside their head while they hold onto their opinions, sometimes even stronger than before. There are well study psychological explanation for this way of thinking.

 

[Robert Joe]

The slappa case just arrived today... sorry, don't mean to change the subject, but... it is too small! It won't close! The zippers are about 1/2 inch apart, and I don't want to force it and break the yolk or something. How did you get this to close, whoever recommended them, if you don't mind sharing? The Mr. Speakers ether case was perfect but sold it 'cause it was just collecting dust. Any other recommendations, please?

See my case here:

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/t...e-from-ifa-2016.818846/page-641#post-13485354

 

[up late]

Notice I never said it's off topic, but rather I'm saying dropping that link and the content of that link adds nothing new to the conversation. Two different issues.



And with respect, It most certainly applies to everyone if you've ever engaged in an argument - in real life when you argue heatedly on a subjective topic one side usually just "agree to disagree" or change the topic altogether first to avoid further conflict, people often mistake that as a surrendering but really underlying no opinions are changed. You think you've "won" the argument, but deeply the other side just called you a dick inside their head while they hold onto their opinions, sometimes even stronger than before. There are well study psychological explanation for this way of thinking.

i disagree with your assertion that the link adds nothing new to the conversation. it links to tyll's blog about research that found there is no correlation between headphone frequency response and retail price, which has not been referred to here before as far as i am aware. so while he begins his blog by referring to the responses in this thread to his review of the z1r and his comment regarding his preference for the m50x, there is more to it than just that.

again, and with respect, it's presumptuous to think that your "life lesson" applies to everyone, including me.

 

[canali]

it has everything to do with it. every headphone has a frequency range. frequency response graphs chart it. i would be astonished if sony's audio engineers didn't use frequency response measurements along with their ears to shape the z1r's sound signature.

Yes i hear you...see the cnet review...the development of these cans also included, amongst other things, the imput of seasoned sound engineers Battery studios (Sony's NY studio)

.http://www.batterystudios.com/

https://www.cnet.com/news/sonys-high-end-personal-audio-range-is-suitably-nuts-hands-on/

 

[thatonenoob]

There's always been different ways to approach audio. Not everyone will want the numbers, and not everyone will want the impressions.

To a certain extent, you stop justifying, regardless of which side you stand on. Especially with audio, an industry where standards are less clear and enforced than others, taste can be a huge factor from what I've noticed.

I approach the issue, especially in reviews, having established a standard of what information would satisfy me. I take my measurements, listen, and correlate. Then it's up to fellow readers/ head-fi'ers to interpret.

There'll be room to improve, criticisms, etc. However, it's impossible justify to everyone how you feel about something or prove that your standpoint is correct. If measurements don't match up - time to investigate. But there's really instances where I'm unable to correlate or perhaps lack the appropriate knowledge - the interpretation by others comes in handy. Leave an impression, measurements, and we'll discuss it on a thread. To me, numbers, and the act of taking data, is solid. If it's wrong - assess the measurement tools and procedure, try again. If it doesn't line up with what you're hearing (which is the final product) - take note and let others decide.

Certainly a number of people were enjoying the Z1R. I don't see why they should stop.

It does worry me that some of this discussion is getting personal and quite ugly. I like to think that we're sharing thoughts and interpretations and adding to the perspectives available on this website. And also, doubt we're going to change anyone's specific opinion on a matter by arguing over text on a forum. That doesn't even work face-to-face.

Cheers guys and continue enjoying the Z1R or music or whatever it is you're doing.

 

[jmills8]

 

[Maelob]

it has everything to do with it. every headphone has a frequency range. frequency response graphs chart it. i would be astonished if sony's audio engineers didn't use frequency response measurements along with their ears to shape the z1r's sound signature.

Tyll's words "For a start there's no accepted standardized measurement target for manufacturers to shoot for—the Harman curve is gaining traction, but it's far from a standard"

 

[nc8000]

There's always been different ways to approach audio. Not everyone will want the numbers, and not everyone will want the impressions.

To a certain extent, you stop justifying, regardless of which side you stand on. Especially with audio, an industry where standards are less clear and enforced than others, taste can be a huge factor from what I've noticed.

I approach the issue, especially in reviews, having established a standard of what information would satisfy me. I take my measurements, listen, and correlate. Then it's up to fellow readers/ head-fi'ers to interpret.

There'll be room to improve, criticisms, etc. However, it's impossible justify to everyone how you feel about something or prove that your standpoint is correct. If measurements don't match up - time to investigate. But there's really instances where I'm unable to correlate or perhaps lack the appropriate knowledge - the interpretation by others comes in handy. Leave an impression, measurements, and we'll discuss it on a thread. To me, numbers, and the act of taking data, is solid. If it's wrong - assess the measurement tools and procedure, try again. If it doesn't line up with what you're hearing (which is the final product) - take note and let others decide.

Certainly a number of people were enjoying the Z1R. I don't see why they should stop.

It does worry me that some of this discussion is getting personal and quite ugly. I like to think that we're sharing thoughts and interpretations and adding to the perspectives available on this website. And also, doubt we're going to change anyone's specific opinion on a matter by arguing over text on a forum. That doesn't even work face-to-face.

Cheers guys and continue enjoying the Z1R or music or whatever it is you're doing.

Things usually get heated when somebody believe so much in the rightness of their position and the fallacy of any other position that they consider it their god given duty to enlighten the heathens. This is the case in the discussion of any subject somebody cares deeply about.

 

[up late]

Tyll's words "For a start there's no accepted standardized measurement target for manufacturers to shoot for—the Harman curve is gaining traction, but it's far from a standard"

yes that's right. i don't know what target curve sony used as an objective reference for the development of the z1r's sound signature. some have suggested that it was the harman curve. i think it's unlikely that they would have relied entirely on their hearing tho.

 

[Sonic Defender]

yes that's right. i don't know what target curve sony used as an objective reference for the development of the z1r's sound signature. some have suggested that it was the harman curve. i think it's unlikely that they would have relied entirely on their hearing tho.

Ditto. I suspect with signature pieces such as the Z1R likely as you say there is a general target starting point and then the product does get more personalized by the lead engineer and any senior member of the team also involved in tuning. It makes sense that human tuning would have a significant impact on the final product, but initially as that tuning is being nuanced there would the guidance of a generic under-tuning, maybe the Harman curve? for sure with such an intended statement piece in order for it to actually achieve the goals set out for it by Sony it would ultimately require the human tuning. I suspect with this line there may have been a greater extent of human tuning left in the final DNA.

 

[beowulf]

yes that's right. i don't know what target curve sony used as an objective reference for the development of the z1r's sound signature. some have suggested that it was the harman curve. i think it's unlikely that they would have relied entirely on their hearing tho.

The MDR-Z1R development seems to have involved some people who have been in the field for quite some time, three generations of engineers, actually. One is Sony's Chief Sound Architect Koji Nageno, who designed the MDR-R10 in 1989. Others are Naotaka Tsunoda, who designed the Qualia (2004), another classic. A lot of work appears to have been on the plate of the young Shunsuke Shiomi (acoustic engineer mentored by Tsunoda, they both appeared in many presentations about the new 2016 lineup).

Also involved was mastering engineer and three-time Grammy winner Mark Wilder, more on the tuning side (apparently they tried to tune them to approach the full-room sound of the Dunlavy SC-IV speakers, which might explain a lot of the Z1Rs signature and a source of like/dislike for many users)

I thought this quote from Wilder was interesting: "Mark Wilder shared that the MDR-Z1R's allow him to leave critical listening behind and return to listening for pleasure, the kind of listening that drove him to cut class on Tuesdays to hit the local record shops as a kid" - i.e., I read it as "fun first, measurements second"


(Sources: 1 2)

 

[up late]

yes, i've read that before. i suspect that the sony engineers still reached for their oscilloscopes from time to time.

 

[Whitigir]

The MDR-Z1R development seems to have involved some people who have been in the field for quite some time, three generations of engineers, actually. One is Sony's Chief Sound Architect Koji Nageno, who designed the MDR-R10 in 1989. Others are Naotaka Tsunoda, who designed the Qualia (2004), another classic. A lot of work appears to have been on the plate of the young Shunsuke Shiomi (acoustic engineer mentored by Tsunoda, they both appeared in many presentations about the new 2016 lineup).

Also involved was mastering engineer and three-time Grammy winner Mark Wilder, more on the tuning side (apparently they tried to tune them to approach the full-room sound of the Dunlavy SC-IV speakers, which might explain a lot of the Z1Rs signature and a source of like/dislike for many users)

I thought this quote from Wilder was interesting: "Mark Wilder shared that the MDR-Z1R's allow him to leave critical listening behind and return to listening for pleasure, the kind of listening that drove him to cut class on Tuesdays to hit the local record shops as a kid" - i.e., I read it as "fun first, measurements second"


(Sources: 1 2)

You forgot that already ? Tyll and Bob are ways better than any engineers or researches. Look at the Utopia and what is being done to it ^_^. I enjoy my Utopia, and I sitll hold Z1R in high regard, if it was a bit less bulky, I would have still keeping it....darn it

 

[Kramer01]

My home actually pretty cold I live by the bay, mine just began cracking a bit in the middle I almost wonder if a leather solution would help with it

Thats not a crack, it's just a wrinkle. Leather wrinkles. Sony has used leather on the headband and good leather wrinkles a bit, if you can't see* the hide beneath it then its not cracked. It will develop some more of these wrinkles over the coming weeks and months. I've highlighted the areas where those wrinkles will appear in the coming months. The Z7 headband also wrinkles in the same way. Don't worry it's just regular "wear and tear". It won't get any worse, once those wrinkles appear they don't get deeper.

To increase the life of the leather I would suggest you wipe the oils using a slightly damp cloth after using since body oils will wreak the leather over time. Use a good leather conditioner/ cleaner(the kind used for car seats is good) once every 2-3 months and it will be fine. Just don't rub too vigorously as that can do more harm than good.

Earpads are genuine sheepskin leather. Headband is genuine leather.