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Sennheiser Veil - Page 3

post #31 of 263
11/18/04 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WmAx
Your unsubstantiated fears (comically, resulting in prevention of really useful technologies) keep me entertained. Keep it up.
Why unsubstantiated? Explain!

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post #32 of 263
11/18/04 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geek
Veil?

The "veil effect" is an illusion created by imaging sounds and voices at a natural distance from the listener. Go hear a chamber group play in a small recital hall and it will also be "veiled" there, too.

Some people call grado headphones "bright, harsh, and fatiguing" and others call sennheiser headphones "veiled." I think it's just a matter of opinion more than real scientific reasoning.

Cheers,
Geek
Bingo!

Some people seem to equate the more natural soundstage presentation (like being 10 rows back at a concert) of the HD580/6X0 with somehow being "veiled"? (like I said before, I only hear "unveiled" music). I can understand why some people (especially musicians, and metal-heads) prefer the more forward "in your face" presentation of Grado's, because it's more like being onstage with the band. Like Geek says it's a matter of opinion, but there is no "veil" IMO.
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post #33 of 263
11/18/04 at 2:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ
Why unsubstantiated? Explain!
This can't be a serious question! Are you kidding?

-Chris
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post #34 of 263
11/18/04 at 3:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WmAx
Your unsubstantiated fears
Is, in your opinion, the D/A conversion of the DEQ2496 of the same Quality like the one of the McCormack UDP-1? Is it that, what you are trying to say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ
The best amp(s) I've heard with it so far.
That will not last for long.
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post #35 of 263
11/18/04 at 3:46pm
Based on the headroom graphs below it appears to run from about 4 to 8 khz on the better phones, though I believe it will vary with an individual's ear shape, and I don't think these measurements are a gold standard. I believe these are the frequencies that most strongly correspond to whether we perceive a headphone as bright or not (upper midrange / lower treble). Things are also a little subdued above the spike at 8 khz or so, relative to, say, a Grado.

Whether you think it's a veil or not is a matter of opinion, not fact, IMHO. It's Sennheiser's take on what sounds good. High frequencies roll off very quickly as you step away from a musical performance... what distance away from the performance to emulate is a judgment call.

If it bugs you, a Behringer DEQ2496 will get rid of it right quick. My HD580 responds exceptionally well to EQ. I'm guessing it's fairly free of resonances.

http://www.headphone.com/layout.php?...are+Headphones

Quote:
Originally Posted by marios_mar
What frequencies does the veil cover and in which Senns?

Do these freq. include male and female voices?
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post #36 of 263
11/18/04 at 3:54pm
this is coming from a grado lover.

i heard senn 650s with silver dragons, and 650s with zu mobius. neither had a veil.

have yet to hear a stock 650, so i can't say if there is a veil or not.
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post #37 of 263
11/18/04 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahn
have yet to hear a stock 650, so i can't say if there is a veil or not.
W/ the stock cable, there really isn't one. The sound reminds me of speakers. But it can seem veiled, especially if someone is coming from a treble-heavy phone. I think the high-end of the 650 sounds more natural than the dt880s/RS1 I had. IMO of course.
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post #38 of 263
11/18/04 at 6:18pm

Recording Dependent?

I've noticed how sometimes it doesn't seem like I'm in the same room as the musicians--I expect this to be what people call veil. However, it also seems recording dependent. On one hand, recordings with the Clevelend Orchestra are completely magical--I am there. I find this with older (late 70's) *and* current releases (example Boulez conducting Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique). On the other hand, recordings with Chicago, Berlin, and the Ensemble InterContemporain lack the magic. Because Deutsche Grammophon must use the same sound engineers, I'm left thinking there must be something special within Cleveland's Masonic Hall. I note differences with other genre of music, but have only made progress thinking about orchestral music...


JF
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post #39 of 263
11/18/04 at 6:30pm
To my ears listening to the HD-600 is like listening with a curtain between my ear and the headphone, it's not a bad sound but the fine details never seem to force themselves through the curtain..... a great headphone for general listening but not for listening to microscopic detail.
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post #40 of 263
11/18/04 at 7:02pm
Thread Starter 
threadjacking myself here but Pink please tell me what are the tweaks in your profile. I cannot understand them excpet the cap upgrades.xfeed and the rainbow foil. What are the other ones?
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post #41 of 263
11/18/04 at 7:13pm
IMO, the veil isn't limited to a small range of frequencies, but colors the entire sound they reproduce, it's just a characteristic of the driver or the overall design. To me, it's a general fog or haze that covers over the entire sound presentation. They lack depth, everything is squashed together in a 2D plane that is held at the same perceived distance from the listener. There are no sounds that sound close, none that sound far away, only a thin slab of sound somewhere in the middle, like all the sounds are smushed up against a foggy pane of glass.
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post #42 of 263
11/18/04 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markl
IMO, the veil isn't limited to a small range of frequencies, but colors the entire sound they reproduce, it's just a characteristic of the driver or the overall design. To me, it's a general fog or haze that covers over the entire sound presentation. They lack depth, everything is squashed together in a 2D plane that is held at the same perceived distance from the listener. There are no sounds that sound close, none that sound far away, only a thin slab of sound somewhere in the middle, like all the sounds are smushed up against a foggy pane of glass.
Mark...

...it must be your ears! Nothing of these characterizations applies to what I hear.

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post #43 of 263
11/18/04 at 7:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveM324
If you had a good amp and source, you wouldn't hear any veil.
Right. I'd be hearing a bright amp or bright source
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post #44 of 263
11/18/04 at 7:35pm
Quote:
...it must be your ears! Nothing of these characterizations applies to what I hear.
BTW, should have clarified these comments refer to HD600 with aftermarket cable, not the HD650, which I've only ever heard in a store situation, not on my own rig.

JaZZ, I was pretty happy with the HD600 until I tried the CD3000 and later the R10. I wasn't conscious of the veil until it was lifted by another headphone. My comments about the Senns are relative to what other headphones can do. For me, they showed me the Senn HD600 does have a veil, isn't as good at imaging as some other phones, lack depth, all the other things I said. I agree they are fine headphones, and until I heard something else, I had no frame of reference for what a headphone can and can't do to know if the Senns were as "perfect" as some liked to say. On their own, in isolation, they're fine, in contrast to some other phones, maybe not so great at some things (to me).

I'm sure there are a couple things the HD600 can do that the R10 can't and that there are a few trade-offs, but right now I can't for the life of me think of what they might be...
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post #45 of 263
11/18/04 at 7:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markl
..they lack depth, everything is squashed together in a 2D plane that is held at the same perceived distance from the listener. There are no sounds that sound close, none that sound far away, only a thin slab of sound somewhere in the middle, like all the sounds are smushed up against a foggy pane of glass.
are you talking of hd650 ...aren't you confusing headphones here..?

I have both k501 and hd650 and hd650 do the soundstage placement and give the "soundstage joy" way better when properly amped. I'm sure when i say this things.

k501 can give a lushy soundrangy midrange and are way more relaxed and less "alive on the ears" and more bright too ( I prefer everytime them to hd650 for classical , but hd650 are on for quite every other kinf of music..)

Maybe you could try to nude the drivers to remove a bit of the fog you hear.
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