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Singlepower's Response - Page 9  

post #121 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by comabereni
C -
On a more serious note: Although I am not an engineer or a patent lawyer and therefore would not like to comment on aspects of craftsmanship, safety standards, patent applications or the like, I would like to express my layman's thoughts when looking at the inside pics of these Singlepower amps:

It looks messy to me. Maybe they sound great, but I simply can't believe that there is a technical sine qua non for the amps' internal wiring to look that messy in order to achieve the sound that Singlepower owners are so fond of. In other words, I believe that the same sound quality could be achieved with a tidier wiring. I may be wrong though; please correct me if this is the case.
post #122 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugano-san
It looks messy to me. Maybe they sound great, but I simply can't believe that there is a technical sine qua non for the amps' internal wiring to look that messy in order to achieve the sound that Singlepower owners are so fond of. In other words, I believe that the same sound quality could be achieved with a tidier wiring. I may be wrong though; please correct me if this is the case.
This is a good question, and the internal design is claimed to be in the interest of maximizing audio quality. So it's entirely possible that a better-organized amp has been built before that simply didn't sound as good for one reason or another. There's no way to know unless an aesthetically designed ptp layout is made and implemented.
post #123 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnero
The person that posted the first thread was not an owner, the amp was a demo unit and we all know how demo products get treated. Considering this wasn't his property and it is clearly marked as having no user servicable parts I don't think it was his place to be going inside the amp to fix anything in the first place.
Maybe he just wanted to fix his amp via the help of headfiers with singlepower products. Nobody like to be without there amp due to repair. In the process he took a picture to see if any headfier could help and inadvertently started off this cascade of threads and posts????? If it was to start a amp slanging match then that is different and I do not agree with it.
post #124 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg
These "translations" are highly subjective, and highly speculative. This commentary is meant to instill disdain for SinglePower, rather than to communicate factual information.
I have to agree with bln and mikeg, wodgy's comments here and in the other threads regarding this subject have been highly speculative and done very little to offer helpful insight, instead they have been worded in such a way as to help fuel more speculation, in some cases outright fear monger and appear highly prejudicial as seen in his "translation" which as Mike points only reeks of disdain for Singlepower rather than offer anything factual.

This is the problem with a forum like this, everybody's a friggin' expert and even the ones that might actually qualify as real experts don't seem to be able to agree. Mikhail has responded to the requests for a reply only to have his straight forward replies picked apart, read into and questioned further. From a laypersons perspective, not a Singlepower owners, it looks like your all just looking for something to pick apart so no matter what Mikhail says your going to find something wrong with it.

Oh and I have got to ask, how many of you people that are making such a big deal out of all these things are Singlepower customers or have been considering buying a Singlepower amp? If you're not either why do you care so much?
post #125 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnero
I have to agree with bln and mikeg, wodgy's comments here and in the other threads regarding this subject have been highly speculative and done very little to offer helpful insight, instead they have been worded in such a way as to help fuel more speculation, in some cases outright fear monger and appear highly prejudicial as seen in his "translation" which as Mike points only reeks of disdain for Singlepower rather than offer anything factual.

This is the problem with a forum like this, everybody's a friggin' expert and even the ones that might actually qualify as real experts don't seem to be able to agree. Mikhail has responded to the requests for a reply only to have his straight forward replies picked apart, read into and questioned further. From a laypersons perspective, not a Singlepower owners, it looks like your all just looking for something to pick apart so no matter what Mikhail says your going to find something wrong with it.

Oh and I have got to ask, how many of you people that are making such a big deal out of all these things are Singlepower customers or have been considering buying a Singlepower amp? If you're not either why do you care so much?
My view does not change on singlepower products. I am still considering it as my high end setup with other manufacturers. It's just it is difficult for me to hear one as a demo or at a meet. Once I get to hear one and make my decision I will drop the puck on one. This is all due to if I can raise the funds.
post #126 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoRedwings19
Maybe he just wanted to fix his amp via the help of headfiers with singlepower products. Nobody like to be without there amp due to repair. In the process he took a picture to see if any headfier could help and inadvertently started off this cascade of threads and posts????? If it was to start a amp slanging match then that is different and I do not agree with it.
Well from what I understood at the time he posted the pictures he had already gone inside the amp and fixed the problem which was apparently minor, he hasn't fully explained it but I got the impression it was a loose pin in a tube socket which may not even have anything to do with Mikhail's build quality. And again from my understanding it was a demo unit that he did not own, if it failed it was not his place to be poking around inside it. He did not explain why he posted the pictures and the whole post was rather short and cryptic, I have no idea about his motivations and reasoning but I can speculate on the motivations of the person that reposted them considering some of his previous actions.
post #127 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoRedwings19
My view does not change on singlepower products. I am still considering it as my high end setup with other manufacturers. It's just it is difficult for me to hear one as a demo or at a meet. Once I get to hear one and make my decision I will drop the puck on one. This is all due to if I can raise the funds.
I suggest calling Mikhail directly, he may have a demo unit available for audition although this fiasco may have changed his mind on that unfortunately.
post #128 of 211
SinglePower is out of my economic range. So the details of the thread don't really affect me. However i feel that a few of the overall messages of the thread are extrmemly important:

1. All amps may be similar but they're not the same. This means you shouldn't take anything for granted.

2. Internal wiring matters and varies. By and large i would have figured that there was a standard method that could be expected everywhere. Now i realize that amp building is sort of an art. But the additional message is that one should not be afraid to get to know the inside of their amp or any amp that they can. Previously i wouldn't think of taking a headphone amp apart, now i'm considering taking everything i own apart. Except the microwave, that thing frightens me.

3. Sound is all that matters. This may not be 100% true, assuming there is the possiblity of electrocution or rips in time/space or whatever, but it does seem that one should focus on the sound of an amp and perhaps consider the aesthetic aspect secondly.

But above all, it's been a thread that's chock full of info. Now i'm getting interested in internal wiring, class-A/Bness, and all of the other technic info that's been bandied about.

I can't really comment much about the original/main argument. It seemed like it was a semantic argument based on technicalities, and perhaps the amp isn't what it claims to be. If true, that does not mean that it's not a kick ass amp (as people acknowledge). Just because scissors aren't a kinfe, that doesn't mean that they can't cut.
post #129 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnero
This is the problem with a forum like this, everybody's a friggin' expert and even the ones that might actually qualify as real experts don't seem to be able to agree. Mikhail has responded to the requests for a reply only to have his straight forward replies picked apart, read into and questioned further. From a laypersons perspective, not a Singlepower owners, it looks like your all just looking for something to pick apart so no matter what Mikhail says your going to find something wrong with it.
Two things. First, the only thing that was specifically in question earlier in this thread was the matter of exactly what defines "pure class A." I believe this has been cleared up, and in fact is stated by Mikhail in his first post. The SinglePower series in fact are not "pure class A" amps, most specifically because if they are used at relatively high volume with low impedance cans they drop out of class A. There was also a question of whether or not the amp would be more expensive or less expensive to build with better quality of construction. As far as I can tell, this is still up in the air.

Secondly, I believe as well that certain parts of Mikhail's statement were vague. That doesn't mean that this was done on purpose, or that it implies that he is lying, but it still leaves some questions unanswered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elnero
Oh and I have got to ask, how many of you people that are making such a big deal out of all these things are Singlepower customers or have been considering buying a Singlepower amp? If you're not either why do you care so much?
This isn't quite fair. Whether or not a person is a potential or current SinglePower owner shouldn't affect their interest in this subject. Generally speaking, most of the SinglePower owners are those vehemently defending Mikhail and his work. On the other hand, those questioning his methods and design are generally non-owners. So if the non-owners were simply to shut up and go home, this would be entirely over. In some sense, that might not be a bad idea. But there is already a lot of bad blood brewing due to all this, and I think the only way to prevent popular division is to move ahead...intelligently.


Also, regarding the "speculation" in your most recent reply to GoRedWings19 -- this is exactly the type of thing that got us into trouble in the first place. At this point, I think it would be best if we didn't "speculate" about *anything* or anyone, and simply try (as hard as it seems to be) to stick to the facts.
post #130 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnero
I suggest calling Mikhail directly, he may have a demo unit available for audition although this fiasco may have changed his mind on that unfortunately.
I never thought of that. And it would be a shame to not be able to listen to one.
post #131 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon L
It was reported that Singlepower claimed SET (I don't know if it was actually claimed) but that it was push-pull. Any clarification of this aspect?

BTW, I prefer PP to SET at this stage of my life
In that case, you will like the Singlepower amps.

The Singlepower amps are push-pull, not single-ended. Mikhail admitted this when he told us that these amps fall out of class A when driven hard. Tube amps that run in class AB cannot be single-ended. (For more information, see the Radiotron Designer's Handbook, 3rd. ed, page 13.) The converse is not true. Push-pull amps can be configured in class A or class AB. As Mikhail says, the Singlepower amps run in class AB for some volumes into some headphone loads.

Mikhail did formerly claim that his amps were single-ended triode designs, if we take the three published online reviews at face value. One of the positive aspects of these threads has been revealing that this claim was not true. People looking for the SET sound will have to choose another amplifier. People looking for the push-pull sound have found what they're looking for with Singlepower amps.
post #132 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS
Hold on. If he can "improve" the build, lower the cost, AND improve the sonic signature, I'd say he should (1) build it himself and sell it cheaper, and (2) sign me up as an investor!
Phil, after all this are you really brave enough to consider ivesting in an amplifier Co.?
post #133 of 211
I tried to get an answer about the question whether the Singlepower amps were single-ended in a couple of threads about a year ago. For example this one started by Carlos3: SET OTL, how rare? I was always told that Mikhail's amps were parallel single-ended, not push-pull, despite the fact that they used a double triode in their output stage. "Single-ended" has become a marketing buzz word, of course. A lot of manufacturers claim that their amps are single-ended, while there are some push-pull elements in there. A "Totem Pole" output stage, for example, is sometimes referred to as "Single-Ended Push-Pull" or SEPP. Sounds weird, doesn't it? Well, that's marketing.

There is a seven year old post at rec.audio.tubes by DIY legend Kurt Strain that sums up the situation quite nicely:
Quote:
In most these so-called "Single-Ended" amps, they are really "totem pole" outputs. In the case of the circlotron that I've seen, there are two "single-ended" cathode followers arranged in a floating bridge to remove the need for a DC blocking cap. They are in opposite phase - and that's Push-Pull.

In my mind, a true "SE amp" is Single Ended in it's simplest form; i.e., there's one active amplifying device - the other is a load (active or passive). With the White Cathode Follower, the device is a totem pole "push-pull" output stage. It's just that the input of the White Cathode Follower is Single Ended to start and the output is Single Ended to finish. So some will call this a single ended amp. Yet the totem pole stage serves to drive the output from the top and from the bottom simultaneously - push from above and pull from below or pull from above and push from below - like in Push-Pull.

It is better to be specific. Most SE amps are tubed common cathode output stages. Even the PASS Zen amp has a common source output stage. But some amps are SE amps when they are FET common drain output stages or tubes that are common anode. So there are a lot of people using the SE label, with various actual topologies. The White Cathode Follower can be part of this variation on a theme, but that just shows that "SE" is not some stamp ofapproval by a bunch of "SE enthusiasts". Futterman amps had the White Cathode follower output stage, I believe, and Julius Futterman wasn't calling his OTL amps "SE-OTL" amps back then.

It's my opinion the core "SE movement" is basically derived in general from using a directly heated triode in a common cathode output stage with an air-gapped output transformer and little or no global feedback. The more you deviate from that, the more you stick your neck out when prominantly claiming "it's an SE amp." My response to these designs that have this marketing label, "Yeah? Do you mean it sounds like a typical directly heated triode in a common cathode output stage with an air-gapped output transformer and little or no global feedback, or is it just lacking balanced inputs, or what?"
post #134 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkmelt
Perhaps the following disclaimer should come with all tube headphone amplifiers.

ACHTUNG - ALLES KOPFPHONERLISTENERS

Alles kopfphonerlisteners non-technischens! Das tubenmachine is nicht for gefengerpoken und mittengrabben. Oderwise is easy schnappen der springenverk, blowenfus, und poppencap, mit spitzensparken. Gewerken inside der tubenmachine is fur der experten only. Is nicht fur geverken inside by das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken amateuren keepen das cotton-picken hands in das pockets. Just relaxen, enjoyen der musik, und vatchen das pretty glowentubes.
post #135 of 211
Am I the only one who tried to put that through a german translater before it actually dawned on me to read it?
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