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Chord Electronics - Hugo 2 - The Official Thread - Page 17

post #241 of 2403
Quote:
Originally Posted by bytor33 View Post

Does anyone know what advantage native DSD will provide over the DSD capabilities of the original Hugo and Mojo? Is it mainly to allow higher res DSD?


I wonder the same as you.

But does HUGO 2 really do DSD natively?

If so, it would be the first ever  Chord DAC to do so.I interpreted the presentation covering DSD as more refined filtering employed. But still the same decimating approach as before?

Another thing that now seems clarified via a response from Rob over at the DAVE thread is that HUGO 2 will NOT have galvanic isolation. Bummer. That is one area where my Benchmark DAC2 HGC is vastly¬† superior to my HUGO. The Benchmark is¬† super smooth and full bodied compared to HUGO¬īs suceptibility to RF¬† ground loops or whatever has caused it to sound unlistenable in my home system far too often apart from those flimsy bad RCA connections.

This means I would still have to buy an Intona or similar proper galvanic isolator for home use.

Moreover Rob claims the reason for this lack of galvanic isolation even on HUGO 2 is that it is mainly intended for" planes,trains and automobiles."

I never listen to music  on planes although I too am a frequent flyer.

I don¬īt own any noise cancelling headphones and there are no such phones that I consider good enough for the classical music I almost always listen to.

Besides I don¬īt think that my fellow travellers would appreciate my taking out my baton and conducting along to what I would be listening to at such times.

Unfortunately  I rarely get to  fly 1st class or business class anyway.

The same applies to trains although they are generally a bit less noisy.

And when I drive my car I partly go into creative mode but keep the main part  of my attention on the road ahead and the traffic around  me.

I would be a  real traffic danger if listening to Mozart or Beethoven while driving.

Classical music is intoxicating!

I simply don¬īt get this obsession of listening to music while doing something completely different while doing so.

Music as a background to something else except dancing, is basically just noise to me.

It sounds promising though, if HUGO 2  actually sounds fuller and with more body than sometimes thin and wiry HUGO.

One of the most underestimated things in audio engineering these days is the need for LOTS AND LOTS of power especially at loud climaxes in symphonic music.

At home my amp reaches peaks of 300- 400 hundred watts on a regular basis. Sometimes more.

HUGO doesn¬īt do Mahler¬† very well for example.With good headphones there is simply not enough power from HUGO.¬†

If  warmth ,fullnes and power are  done without compromise and colourations that could actually be an indication of more resolution and better more realistic SQ.

With few exceptions as for example some  bad venues acoustic music actually sounds both warmer and fuller than via HUGO and most  other digital for that matter. The only exception being DSD which actually has a tendency to almost always sound warmer and softer than the real thing. No digititis with DSD. But at the expense of lower resolution. At least with standard  DSD 64.

With this¬† new information coming I will probably not really be in rush to buy HUGO 2. I will carefully compare it to competitor¬īs products in the same price range first and according to some here and over at Computer Audiophile there might be some interesting alternatives which might give HUGO 2 a good run for its money.

And one thing that confuses me is the M scaler  everybody seems obessed about,which to me seems to be some kind of upsampler and according to some other experts upsampling could be done in software  both cheaper and better than in

"√ľberexpensive hardware".

Anyway hopefully Rob doesn¬īt do his serious¬† testlistening on "planes, trains or automobiles".


Edited by Christer - 1/10/17 at 9:18pm
post #242 of 2403

DSD has to be transported to the DAC and I know only 2 ways PCM or DoP. How could a DAC by itself do native DSD decoding? only a DAP can do that internally. Do I miss something?

post #243 of 2403
Quote:
Originally Posted by kikouyou View Post
 

DSD has to be transported to the DAC and I know only 2 ways PCM or DoP. How could a DAC by itself do native DSD decoding? only a DAP can do that internally. Do I miss something?

 

 

PCM is DoP.  Native is just DSD, non DoP.  I don't expect any changes in the way DSD is handled at the DAC for Chord.  The only change is that DSD can be streamed native to the DAC for Chord Hugo 2.   Not the greatest sound quality for DSD, but exceptable considering it's such a small portion of ones library.  Heavy DSD listeners don't buy Chord DAC's or have two.


Edited by elviscaprice - 1/11/17 at 5:11am
post #244 of 2403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan View Post

I'm quite excited that (in the UK) the Hugo 2 is anticipated to be about the cost of a Hugo and Mojo combined, and can act like either - or its own persona...

Definitely interested, although will have to sell more body parts...

According to Chord Hugo2 retail is $2500 usd
post #245 of 2403
Quote:
Originally Posted by bytor33 View Post

Does anyone know what advantage native DSD will provide over the DSD capabilities of the original Hugo and Mojo? Is it mainly to allow higher res DSD?

 

All I know is when I listened(will do more AB comparative later today but its a busy day so this is from disconnected memory) to my iDSD via Bughead Emperor to DSD material I heard way more air.(I know Hugo is more natural but Im in BFE Florida away from any kind of nice electronics store so I havent heard it) Micro iDSD sounds way better more natural and more airy than the Mojo(Mojo smokes it on PCM tho) which by comparison sounds reduced and digital(I know I need to AB some piano to compare transients and harmonic layering which likely on the DSD Burr Brownx2(probably not using the x2 on lower DSD content tho) may blur).  This is the main reason I was looking to a Hugo but now my attention to turned to Hugo2(my god honed deal logic taught me quite early that choice is merely an illusion; YOU WILL MAKE THE PERFECT CHOICE OR DEAL PRIDE AND REGRET WILL PUNISH YOU TILL YOU HONE YOURSELF)(also because I prefer audiophile detail and transparency to fun tunings(I like to dabble in these and listen to edm too but edm seems to do better on cheap trash hardware so seeking out audiophile edm(compromised fun edm audiophile?(Mojo)) is not something I have the time, mind or money for yet, as I'm still chasing pure audiophile first to see what that is ....really..... I guess you could still say I'm within mid-fi)(Im poor relatively as I had to satisfy questions in my mind about the world, but I've solved all those to the relative extent of the time they are worth and so now I am turning back to the propaganda induced TIME vs MONEY but this time with a wholly different take and proper approach.....)(which this is also now the time as the dollar is strengthening which I have a very good handle on why this is in full political(you cannot imagine the scale of the understanding I have of this and of course this kind of talk is banned here so I wont go into it >:> and I also know exactly why it is banned here :)) and weak economic sense(I aim to have a Dave within a couple years max).

 

So to summarize I hope DSD is improved and I guess I will see when I get Hugo 2 this summer.  Only people that can answer this are those that have heard it.


Edited by ColdFlo - 1/11/17 at 10:28am
post #246 of 2403
Just to be clear, Chord DAVE will do native dsd as well.
post #247 of 2403
Quote:
Originally Posted by ismewor View Post


According to Chord Hugo2 retail is $2500 usd


Interesting since it was mentioned somewhere before it will retail for £1,800. With the current exchange rate of about $1.22, that would equate to $2,200.


Edited by jwbrent - 1/11/17 at 10:35am
post #248 of 2403

Here's an interesting read on MQA and Tidal.

 

I wonder whether the Hugo 2 will have the ability to do more than one unfolding of MQA files ...

post #249 of 2403

Maybe someone can explain what that article doesnt.  I don't see why all the unfolding cant be done on the cpu in software and then passed to the dac if you have a usb class 2 chip and can handle all those sampling rates anyway?  The problem with external dacs was usb class 2 and if the dac then has that pathway it can be unfolded on the cpu then passed to the dac full bandwidth.  Seems silly for tidal and MQA to limit their model like that.  Seems like MQA works off hardware sales or licensing so it looks like its kind of a limited self defeating idea from the get go that and maybe the streaming service doesnt like the idea of downloads like that because they are likely encrypted and doesnt like the idea of them being manipulated in the os and harddrive(still from a technology standpoint thats completely silly). Seems to me you would have allot more subscribers if you increased your user base cause everyone already has a pc.  People have latched onto those DragonFlies too much LOL I had some joke mod on a Zeos chatroom tell me that DragonFly was better than Mojo and I could have saved some money.  LOL later I challenged his recommendation of that monoprice 11567 and banned me off the chatroom on the craziest IRC Freenode(that place is a cesspit) powertrip I've ever witnessed.  There has to be a cheap USB class 2 solution by now and it sure is funny how micro$oft holds off on making those drivers.


Edited by ColdFlo - 1/11/17 at 12:27pm
post #250 of 2403
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdFlo View Post
 

Maybe someone can explain what that article doesnt.  I don't see why all the unfolding cant be done on the cpu in software and then passed to the dac if you have a usb class 2 chip and can handle all those sampling rates anyway?  The problem with external dacs was usb class 2 and if the dac then has that pathway it can be unfolded on the cpu then passed to the dac full bandwidth.  Seems silly for tidal and MQA to limit their model like that.  Seems like MQA works off hardware sales or licensing so it looks like its kind of a limited self defeating idea from the get go that and maybe the streaming service doesnt like the idea of downloads like that because they are likely encrypted and doesnt like the idea of them being manipulated in the os and harddrive(still from a technology standpoint thats completely silly). Seems to me you would have allot more subscribers if you increased your user base cause everyone already has a pc.  People have latched onto those DragonFlies too much LOL I had some joke mod on a Zeos chatroom tell me that DragonFly was better than Mojo and I could have saved some money.  LOL later I challenged his recommendation of that monoprice 11567 and banned me off the chatroom on the craziest IRC Freenode(that place is a cesspit) powertrip I've ever witnessed.  There has to be a cheap USB class 2 solution by now and it sure is funny how micro$oft holds off on making those drivers.

 

The way I see it, MQA partially unfolds the file just to give you a taste of what it has to offer. If you want the full experience than one would buy a MQA compatable dac. It's their way of making money and milking consumers just like you said.

post #251 of 2403
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxh22 View Post
 

 

The way I see it, MQA partially unfolds the file just to give you a taste of what it has to offer. If you want the full experience than one would buy a MQA compatable dac. It's their way of making money and milking consumers just like you said.


I think "milking consumers" may be unwarranted, especially to us audiophiles who spend lots of money looking for the holy grail.

post #252 of 2403
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwbrent View Post
 


I think "milking consumers" may be unwarranted, especially to us audiophiles who spend lots of money looking for the holy grail.

 

I disagree so you have these god dac makers and because MQA found a technique of hiding data beneath the noise floor(seems it cant be impossible to figure this out do they hold the patent?) they now have to license these turkeys and increase the cost of their dacs just to service tidal?  and lets be honest the top of the top is not going to do that anyway unless they take over major marketshare(which is possible cause the record companies want a way to claw back into full control, where is the security aspect of this tho.... I dont understand how this can just be some new data format(they always tell you its not a file format this whole product just screams propaganda word twisting and brainwash) yet no one else is allowed to copy it and you cant just download it from the file streaming and keep it? streaming always has encryption so how are they stopping the ripping? no explanation of that whatsoever) and the dacs that do have it enabled are not going to be the top ones and DragonFly is doing it I guess cause its cheaper than an usb audio class 2 solution?  see this to me doesnt even sound right wonder what MQA adds is it a chip? I doubt its the dac chip(because then they wouldnt be able to claim so many partnerships and I doubt any fab is gonna add some circuit for MQA cause of tidal)(kind of wonder how they got Audioquest to go along with it) so it must be a chip that feeds the dac chip so its like an alternative to usb audio class 2?  Still usb audio class 2 is now 4 years old and prices are coming down I still dont see how dac makers wouldnt choose that and sometime soon Windows is going to add support(infact I thought recently to start hammering Win 10 Insider Feedback Hub about that) so the driver cost will disappear and Microsoft licensing fees.

 

So MQA dacs will not be the top dacs thats why I say its self defeating ontop of limiting those with acces to it through Tidal and limiting the growth of the whole system.  Also how come Tidal or someone else cant figure out what they are doing and just do it in software themselves?  Do they have the rights to it or does the method require processing? still any processing any cheap chip can do a cpu can do it also.... and faster.....  cause that method gets rid of the hardware, increases user base(you would become the god streamer) everyone would be able to use it you would then only be limited by your dac, see then only a minority of users without usb audio class 2 would need MQA cause really thats all they are servicing anyway sounds like a usb audio class 2 alternative nothing more.  Oh its a Meridian product...........  I dunno man everytime you see them talk about this in detail people are worried about being able to rip music and they start talking about what that has done to record companies.... sounds like some kind trojan horse tech to me.... they never give a straight answer in interviews and tell you how it works instead they start telling you about their policies and why you should go along with them..... which to me sounds like dictating............

 

When will the MQA certification process for third party DAC partners be complete, such as the Mytek Brooklyn?
 The quick answer is always as soon as possible. Each certification process depends on the company and its model and how much work we have to do together to get the result that suits us both. We have a process in place and many products going through.

 

Not only is it licensing but they require you partner with them and they handhold you and require you to meet their specs.  Only a British company would come up with an idea like this....  I don't like it.
If someone can find a concise description of what this is I would appreciate it but Im tired of reading their beat around the bush Q&A and the fact this is how they decide to market themselves frustrates me and only makes me highly suspect of them.

Seems benchmark has a critique of them and yes Meridian has applied for the patent of MQA https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/163302855-is-mqa-doa  So this is a scheme to get recording companies to sign on so they can get their Blockbuster music CD money back from the 90s(and reverse mp3 pirating), and corner control with the patent, and then sucker audiophiles into making it popular with a bunch of propaganda about sound quality but they could have done it without in my view also making us buy another dac(this is where they really mess up)  I mean why do I need to buy another expensive dac(that likely I will consider inferior cause its forced upon me and my choices are limited) just to use Tidal?

 

I also dont like that their method to do this was telling us the opposite of their intentions(propaganda) instead of just coming out and telling people straight what the deal was.  Instead their whole campaign is beat around the bush inverted knowledge disinfo.....


Edited by ColdFlo - 1/11/17 at 4:21pm
post #253 of 2403
Quote:
Originally Posted by elviscaprice View Post
 

 

 

PCM is DoP.  Native is just DSD, non DoP.  I don't expect any changes in the way DSD is handled at the DAC for Chord.  The only change is that DSD can be streamed native to the DAC for Chord Hugo 2.   Not the greatest sound quality for DSD, but exceptable considering it's such a small portion of ones library.  Heavy DSD listeners don't buy Chord DAC's or have two.


It is correct that DoP means DSD over PCM but is it not PCM, nor it is native DSD. I am a heavy user of DSD and i quite like the way Mojo or Hugo handles DSD. Mojo handles version 1.1 of DoP while Hugo handles version 1.0 with Audirvana. I f you have only an Apple Mac like me, we do not have drivers to output Native DSD, we can only output DoP at best from a Mac. I believe for Windows it is different and you can have a driver that you need to load to manage native DSD.

post #254 of 2403
Quote:
Originally Posted by kikouyou View Post
 


It is correct that DoP means DSD over PCM but is it not PCM, nor it is native DSD. I am a heavy user of DSD and i quite like the way Mojo or Hugo handles DSD. Mojo handles version 1.1 of DoP while Hugo handles version 1.0 with Audirvana. I f you have only an Apple Mac like me, we do not have drivers to output Native DSD, we can only output DoP at best from a Mac. I believe for Windows it is different and you can have a driver that you need to load to manage native DSD.


‚ÄčIf your a heavy user of DSD, then Chord DAC's are not what you should be looking at.¬† You want a DAC that maintains DSD though out the DAC stages to analog (no converting to PCM like Chords).¬†

post #255 of 2403
Regarding DSD, my question is, if it decimates it, or not?
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