AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio
Jul 23, 2016 at 10:48 PM Post #1,171 of 3,694
  Adding the Mutec as a re-clocker made a big difference. Adding the LiveClock made a more subtle improvement but still worth it. After I get more hours on the system I might try a few combinations like trying the D16 with just the LiveClock. 
 
Actually I should have just quoted gldgate's longer post from above as I would have said those same things for the same reasons. I believe that we both also use an Yggy.

That's what I figured. I'll probably get both eventually but wanted to know what order to buy them in. I've got a DirectStream which Torq certainly liked in his "Life after Yggdrasil" thread.  http://www.head-fi.org/t/804153/life-after-yggdrasil/525#post_12730063
 
  Yes, currently live in the Bay area - Santa Clara.
 
I always follow your posts here and on CA because our digital chain is virtually identical.

Oh finally someone that isn't living in the Pacific Northwest! Live in San Jose and work in Santa Clara. Seems like the whole rednet group lives within 5 miles of Seattle.
 
Jul 23, 2016 at 11:15 PM Post #1,172 of 3,694

I guess I am the token New Yorker . I feel the RN . Live clock combo is killer but like anything it is system dependent .
I feel sometimes less is more . The Live clock made perfect sense too me . I always felt clean power and a good clock was the key to
great digital SQ . I play my system through speakers most of the time . I am not a big Headphone fan I want to feel  music . My digital front
end has never sounded better.
 
Jul 23, 2016 at 11:18 PM Post #1,173 of 3,694
Thanks for weighing in. Here's some info I've come across, wondering if it applies:

Also, it is critical to understand that signal loss is not equal to data loss. 100% data recovery can easily be maintained in the face of 10%, 20% or even higher signal loss. As I have said before, the clock jitter is much more critical to data recovery than signal strength. As long as signal strength is sufficient to allow the receiving end to "recover" the data stream and clock, the absolute signal level does not matter. The output level from the transformer out the cable is ~600mv. The minimum level per the specification for 100% data recover at the receiving end is 200mv. That's just 1/3 the output! That means 30% signal loss would still provide 50% more than the minimum.

Proper impedance matching is important in theory, but in practice there is plenty of margin to insure 100% data transmission.

Cheers,
Michael
That's in theory, in reality it can be much different. But that's NOT the issue I raised, I was speaking about IMPEDENCE, not signal gain. And that set up looks to be very questionable. Not to mention the BJC cable for spdif duty. Mediocre at best (and yes I have tried it). No wonder the built in USB in equaling the SQ.
 
Jul 24, 2016 at 12:37 AM Post #1,175 of 3,694
 
Thanks for weighing in. Here's some info I've come across, wondering if it applies:

Also, it is critical to understand that signal loss is not equal to data loss. 100% data recovery can easily be maintained in the face of 10%, 20% or even higher signal loss. As I have said before, the clock jitter is much more critical to data recovery than signal strength. As long as signal strength is sufficient to allow the receiving end to "recover" the data stream and clock, the absolute signal level does not matter. The output level from the transformer out the cable is ~600mv. The minimum level per the specification for 100% data recover at the receiving end is 200mv. That's just 1/3 the output! That means 30% signal loss would still provide 50% more than the minimum.

Proper impedance matching is important in theory, but in practice there is plenty of margin to insure 100% data transmission.

Cheers,
Michael

That's in theory, in reality it can be much different. But that's NOT the issue I raised, I was speaking about IMPEDENCE, not signal gain. And that set up looks to be very questionable. Not to mention the BJC cable for spdif duty. Mediocre at best (and yes I have tried it). No wonder the built in USB in equaling the SQ.

 
It sounds like his splitter usage was temporary and a non-factor in USB vs SPDIF sound quality observations.  So there's another theory that didn't seem to match reality.  But regarding the SPDIF cable problem - I'm curious about its mediocrity in the application of transmitting digital data, all else being equal.  Is it the case that digital data transmitted over, say, a 1 foot 7N OCC silver SPDIF cable would differ when transmitted over the 1 foot BJC cable after being examined in the DAC's input buffer, in theory or in reality, assuming of course both cables meet spec?  Because, yet another reasonable theory is that well-isolated USB interfaces - as in the 2Qute apparently - don't give up much to alternate digital interfaces and methods of isolation.
 
Jul 24, 2016 at 3:05 AM Post #1,176 of 3,694
  snip
 
Oh finally someone that isn't living in the Pacific Northwest! Live in San Jose and work in Santa Clara. Seems like the whole rednet group lives within 5 miles of Seattle.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahahahahaha…
 
We were thinking of calling our group The Can Tank, and that would make us members CanTankRUs…
 
JJ 
atsmile.gif
 
 
Jul 24, 2016 at 6:59 AM Post #1,177 of 3,694
 
I guess I am the token New Yorker . I feel the RN . Live clock combo is killer but like anything it is system dependent .
I feel sometimes less is more . The Live clock made perfect sense too me . I always felt clean power and a good clock was the key to
great digital SQ . I play my system through speakers most of the time . I am not a big Headphone fan I want to feel  music . My digital front
end has never sounded better.

 
I grew up in the Bay Area but have lived in DC for several decades now so I guess I qualify as part of the RN East Coast mob.
 
I also mainly listen to speakers now. I used to listen to HP's solely due to my living environment but now have a nice basement where I can squander my retirement. At my present rate of spending I can only afford to live until 90.
 
I never thought that digital could sound this natural, clear, and engaging. I am totally stumped that it is not a hot topic over on CA. It just baffles me...
 
Here is my speaker setup...
 
Server: “CAPS-Like” server with HDPlex 19\12\9\5v LPS and Keces 5v LPS>Windows 2012sp2 with JRMC to Dante Virtual Soundcard with ethernet out
DAC: Focusrite REDnet D16 to Mutec MC+3 USB(reclocking with Antelope LiveClock as external Wordclock to both) and then to Schiit Yggdrasil DAC
Preamp: Custom single stage 301A DHT tube with OPT (3db gain) and Tortuga Audio LDR3.V2 Passive Volume Control
Amp: First Watt SIT2 (10 watts)
Speakers: Omega Super 6 Alnico single driver crossover-less floorstanders and SVS SB2000 12” sub
Wire and Cable: Belden 8402 IC’s, Apogee Wyde Eye AES/EBU, Western Electric WE16 speaker cable wired direct to drivers
 
Jul 24, 2016 at 7:15 AM Post #1,178 of 3,694
That's in theory, in reality it can be much different. But that's NOT the issue I raised, I was speaking about IMPEDENCE, not signal gain. And that set up looks to be very questionable. Not to mention the BJC cable for spdif duty. Mediocre at best (and yes I have tried it). No wonder the built in USB in equaling the SQ.

 
Glad to have you still weighing in here!
 
Jul 24, 2016 at 9:55 AM Post #1,179 of 3,694

You have a very well thought out system . Coherent speakers and killer transparency and I see a little tube flavor all bottomed out by the Sub .
Way to go . Enjoy it   . I have not spun a record in weeks . As for CA you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink  
 
Jul 24, 2016 at 11:43 AM Post #1,180 of 3,694
Quote:
Originally Posted by enginedr /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I play my system through speakers most of the time . I am not a big Headphone fan I want to feel  music . My digital front end has never sounded better.
 
[and]
 
Originally Posted by mourip /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I also mainly listen to speakers now...
 
I never thought that digital could sound this natural, clear, and engaging...
 
Here is my speaker setup...


 
Agreed!
It (Pro Audio AOIP) is a revolution.
Today was a revelation.
I have been without music for a while as my Snell Type A III mids needed re-foaming.
Now they are re-established I played:
a 7" 45 on the P3-24 / RB 301 / Exact / Schitt Mani;
an LP on the LP12 / Ittok / Troika / Linto;
and,
similar music via RedNet D16 AES / Convert-2.
I am fairly long in the tooth with vinyl and a great fan. I have always loathed CDs. This comparison confirmed for the first time that digital music can be more enjoyable and engaging than analogue. That is something I never imagined saying.
I don't believe that I could make such an assertion about USB (although I have not explored every avenue).
Invoking a (satisfaction) hierarchy such as that favoured by rb2013 :wink:
P3-24 = 3/10
LP12 = 6/10
D16/C-2 = 8/10
 

 
Jul 24, 2016 at 3:33 PM Post #1,181 of 3,694
I've got more money invested in my analog system (Nottingham Anna-log, Koetsu Onyx Platinum, Auditorium Hommage H2) than my digital gear. Up to now I've had a preference for Analog. With the Antelope-RedNet-Mutec-Yggy chain I've probably reached the point where musical satisfaction is roughly equivalent (though analog set-up with my best 45rpm pressings still probably has the edge).  While I still play vinyl most of my time (80%/20%) is now spent with digital because of the convenience factor - especially with Roon/Tidal.
 
Jul 24, 2016 at 6:56 PM Post #1,182 of 3,694
   
It sounds like his splitter usage was temporary and a non-factor in USB vs SPDIF sound quality observations.  So there's another theory that didn't seem to match reality.  But regarding the SPDIF cable problem - I'm curious about its mediocrity in the application of transmitting digital data, all else being equal.  Is it the case that digital data transmitted over, say, a 1 foot 7N OCC silver SPDIF cable would differ when transmitted over the 1 foot BJC cable after being examined in the DAC's input buffer, in theory or in reality, assuming of course both cables meet spec?  Because, yet another reasonable theory is that well-isolated USB interfaces - as in the 2Qute apparently - don't give up much to alternate digital interfaces and methods of isolation.

Really a theory about the importance of impedance matching on a spdif coax connection - not matching reality?  How did you come up with that spout of wisdom?  All I can say is you have not experimented with the dozen of so BNC and RCA SPDIF cables and reclockers - you see my wise theoryman, it's my ears that tell me otherwise.  Just like the reason I started this thread and so many others...glad you can dispel your insights here...try doing a little homework son
 
   
Glad to have you still weighing in here!

I really don't know why I bother - see this geniack's post above.  Ugg!  Great to see everybody hoping on my Wclock discovery...the new discovery I found (and oh this one is a ground shaker) one I'll just keep to myself.
 
Jul 24, 2016 at 7:55 PM Post #1,183 of 3,694
  Really a theory about the importance of impedance matching on a spdif coax connection - not matching reality?  How did you come up with that spout of wisdom?  All I can say is you have not experimented with the dozen of so BNC and RCA SPDIF cables and reclockers - you see my wise theoryman, it's my ears that tell me otherwise.  Just like the reason I started this thread and so many others...glad you can dispel your insights here...try doing a little homework son
 
I really don't know why I bother - see this geniack's post above.  Ugg!  Great to see everybody hoping on my Wclock discovery...the new discovery I found (and oh this one is a ground shaker) one I'll just keep to myself.


I can just see it now - A group of crazed audiophiles standing outside your home with torches and pitchforks screaming for your latest  SQ improvement discovery . LOL
The fact is you are right most of the time . I just sit on the fence and wait out a few upgrades before pulling the trigger . the World clock was off the hook good .
Thank you Again Rob           
 
Jul 24, 2016 at 7:56 PM Post #1,184 of 3,694
  Really a theory about the importance of impedance matching on a spdif coax connection - not matching reality?  How did you come up with that spout of wisdom?  All I can say is you have not experimented with the dozen of so BNC and RCA SPDIF cables and reclockers - you see my wise theoryman, it's my ears that tell me otherwise.  Just like the reason I started this thread and so many others...glad you can dispel your insights here...try doing a little homework son
 
I really don't know why I bother - see this geniack's post above.  Ugg!  Great to see everybody hoping on my Wclock discovery...the new discovery I found (and oh this one is a ground shaker) one I'll just keep to myself.


I can just see it now - A group of crazed audiophiles standing outside your home with torches and pitchforks screaming for your latest  SQ improvement discovery . LOL
The fact is you are right most of the time . I just sit on the fence and wait out a few upgrades before pulling the trigger . the World clock was off the hook good .
Thank you Again Rob           
 
Jul 24, 2016 at 8:02 PM Post #1,185 of 3,694
I also mainly listen to speakers now. I used to listen to HP's solely due to my living environment but now have a nice basement where I can squander my retirement. At my present rate of spending I can only afford to live until 90.

I never thought that digital could sound this natural, clear, and engaging. I am totally stumped that it is not a hot topic over on CA. It just baffles me...

Here is my speaker setup...

[COLOR=3E3E3E]Server[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]: “[/COLOR]CAPS[COLOR=3E3E3E]-Like” server with HDPlex 19\12\9\5v [/COLOR]LPS[COLOR=3E3E3E] and Keces 5v [/COLOR]LPS[COLOR=3E3E3E]>Windows 2012sp2 with JRMC to Dante Virtual Soundcard with ethernet out[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]
[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]DAC[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]: Focusrite REDnet D16 to Mutec MC+3 [/COLOR]USB[COLOR=3E3E3E](reclocking with Antelope LiveClock as external Wordclock to both) and then to Schiit Yggdrasil [/COLOR]DAC[COLOR=3E3E3E]
[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]Preamp[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]: Custom single stage 301A DHT tube with OPT (3db gain) and Tortuga Audio LDR3.V2 Passive Volume Control[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]
[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]Amp[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]: First Watt SIT2 (10 watts)[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]
[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]Speakers[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]: Omega Super 6 Alnico single driver crossover-less floorstanders and SVS SB2000 12” sub[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]
[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]Wire and Cable[/COLOR][COLOR=3E3E3E]: Belden 8402 IC’s, Apogee Wyde Eye [/COLOR]AES[COLOR=3E3E3E]/[/COLOR]EBU[COLOR=3E3E3E], Western Electric WE16 speaker cable wired direct to drivers[/COLOR]


Good to hear. By my calculations if you hold off from purchases for a few months until the ref10 comes out you'll continue your current rate of spending and as a bonus we'll all get to know how good it is :)
 

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