Thunderbolt 3 for Audio - Is This the Next Computer Audio Standard?
Apr 25, 2016 at 11:56 AM Post #16 of 37
http://www.audiomediainternational.com/recording/feature-investigating-interface-protocols/04655
 
Investigating interface protocols
Quote:
Roger Robindore, director of product evangelism at Apogee Electronics, agrees with the aforementioned advantages of Thunderbolt. “It’s built on a PCIe backbone, and this has always been the best way to connect audio interfaces to computers where high bandwidth and low latency are required. One of the PCIe protocol’s most important features is direct memory access (DMA), a function whereby the PCIe peripheral – in this case, the audio interface – can send and receive data directly with the computer’s memory, with little or no involvement of the computer’s CPU,” he notes. “This direct data connection is one of the primary reasons that Thunderbolt has such low latency and rock solid stability.”​
 

 
Apr 25, 2016 at 12:02 PM Post #17 of 37
   
Thanks again for the very interesting information.  So there is no much time to wait.  End of this year ? i would add anyway another year to avoid the first issues to be solved.  There is always some bug in the systems.
Could an adapter like these below be a viable solution ? (these are Thunderbolt 2)
 
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ns=p_PRICE_2%7c0&ci=13357&setNs=p_PRICE_2%7c0&N=3668461599+3931687110&srtclk=sort
 
 

 
or this one from Asus  
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASUS-ThunderboltEX-II-DUAL-PCI-e-2-Port-Thunderbolt2-2-Ports-DisplayPort-IN-/191567237275?hash=item2c9a4c109b:g:7KkAAOSwEeFVPU1A
 
 
ok but what about the quality of the converters inside the Pre4 ? maybe they are not that great.   The interface is clearly very important but also the other elements.
Thanks a lot again,  gino  


I would look for a TB3 card - but because of the way TB3 runs it's best implemented at the board level.  The Pre4 has SPDIF coax output - so the idea is just to replace the USB DDC to use with my existing DAC's.  Once Microsoft initiates WIN10 OS support - no need for any drivers or ASIO.  Just go to the Audio Devices box and select the TB3 device.  Like right now on the MAC's.  No driver incompatibilites - easy peasy!  The thing about TB3 is unlike current USB 2.0 audio,  it will run separate from the mouse and keyboard USB calls.
 
What you really want in a WIN/PC machine is what is called Intel's Thunderbolt 3 controller (codenamed Alpine Ridge) - this comes with the Intel Z170 Chipset - compatible with and Based on the LG1151 socket for Skylake.
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 12:06 PM Post #18 of 37
I would look for a TB3 card - but because of the way TB3 runs it's best implemented at the board level.  The Pre4 has SPDIF coax output - so the idea is just to replace the USB DDC to use with my existing DAC's.  Once Microsoft initiates WIN10 OS support - no need for any drivers or ASIO.  Just go to the Audio Devices box and select the TB3 device.  Like right now on the MAC's.  No driver incompatibilites - easy peasy!  The thing about TB3 is unlike current USB 2.0 audio,  it will run separate from the mouse and keyboard USB calls.

 
Hi and thank again.  I am not an expert but this sounds like a much better interface indeed.  You say end of this year ?  
Moreover i am sure that if the standard will take off a lot of interface will appear.  
Kind regards, gino 
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 12:12 PM Post #19 of 37
   
Hi and thank again.  I am not an expert but this sounds like a much better interface indeed.  You say end of this year ?  
Moreover i am sure that if the standard will take off a lot of interface will appear.  
Kind regards, gino 


It is available now with TB2 but with it's proprietary connector (which comes with very large Apple royalties - hence very expensive).  TB3 will switch over to the USB-C connector and be available much, much cheaper - like $25 vs $180.
 
And there will be a optical cable with galvanic isolation available.
 
You see this was the BIG breakthrough - spearheaded by Intel and the launch of the Z170 Chipset.  To get the costs down - for Thunderbolt to become the defacto std - it had to be adopted by both Apple and MS.  That is in the works.  For audio a God send.  AND USB 3.1 will run on TB3 - as will USB 3.0 adn USB 2.0 - but don't see why you would want to do that.  The new Mini MAC likely have only two TB3 ports and NO USB!  Then you can just run an adapter for ethernet, USB 1,2,3 or hdmi all from one super sonic speed 40GB/sec TB3 port.
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 12:17 PM Post #20 of 37
Startech already has one out:
 
http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Thunderbolt-Dual-4K-Docking-Station/dp/B01AAAU4WS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1461600939&sr=8-3&keywords=thunderbolt+3+dock
 

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Apr 25, 2016 at 12:22 PM Post #21 of 37
Since we're talking about next gen tech that's good for audio, what about the current fiber optic solutions. For example adopting 10 GbE but using fiber interconnect instead of copper:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Gigabit_Ethernet

It is commercially available as PCI-E cards for PC/Mac. They are immune to RF and grounding issues. With high end 10 GbE fiber optic, they should be able to clock high enough to, minimize jitter for audio. You would have to write a driver interface, so it will be more work than Thunderbolt.

Anyways just thinking out loud.
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 12:29 PM Post #22 of 37
Since we're talking about next gen tech that's good for audio, what about the current fiber optic solutions. For example adopting 10 GbE but using fiber interconnect instead of copper:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Gigabit_Ethernet

It is commercially available as PCI-E cards for PC/Mac. They are immune to RF and grounding issues. With high end 10 GbE fiber optic, they should be able to clock high enough to, minimize jitter for audio. You would have to write a driver interface, so it will be more work than Thunderbolt.

Anyways just thinking out loud.


But that's just another i2s non-std debacle in the making.  All these different pin configurations, incompatiblities, connectors - a real mess.
 
The beauty now of USB 2.0 Audio is compatibility - yeah due to a lack of bandwidth Async protocols had to be created - and hence many issues.  But at least there is universal compatiblity between PC, MAC, Linux, DDC, DAC, cables, etc...  It is just good enough right now - but with one huge flaw - it is 'packet' not 'streaming' based.  TB3 (PCIe) is the best -
in this case, the audio interface – can send and receive data directly with the computer’s memory, with little or no involvement of the computer’s CPU
- almost zero latency.  From this prespective it will be far superior to USB, and it will be a Universal std (once TB3 takes hold), cables, PCs, OS's, and just way, way faster then Ethernet.
 
PS You can do TB2 right now - with full optical galvanic isolation - cables and converters are already here.  It's just this move to TB3 and the new USB-C connector that's coming that makes that no sense right now.  And MS lack of support of TB1, TB2 and vowed support of TB3 (Intel pushing them hard) - that will be the deciding factor.  I mean USB 2.0 Audio took hold as the std, even without MS support.
 
Imagine TB3 with MS OS support!
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 12:35 PM Post #23 of 37
http://www.corning.com/optical-cables-by-corning/worldwide/en/products/thunderbolt-optical-cables.html
http://www.amazon.com/Corning-Thunderbolt-Self-Powered-Peripherals-AOC-MMS4CVP5-5M20/dp/B00KTIY5Y0
 

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Apr 25, 2016 at 12:53 PM Post #24 of 37
'One Connector to Rule Them All?'
In a fast-moving technological world, manufacturers of high-quality audio interfaces are always looking towards future developments and how these might be useful in an audio context, as Robindore explains: “We’re watching the development of the USB Type-C connector, especially with Intel’s recent announcement that Thunderbolt 3 will employ it. This means that the audio industry could finally have ‘one connector to rule them all’ that could eventually be used in anything from mobile devices to high-bandwidth professional systems,” he reveals. “Hopefully users won’t be confused by the fact that protocols with vastly varying performance can run across a Type-C connection.”​
This convergence of protocols could finally mean that engineers would not have to carry around a case full of leads and converters every time they leave the studio, while leaving open opportunities for manufacturers to innovate and create products that would meet the varying requirements of their various customers.​
One connection protocol that is ubiquitous on both Apple- and Windows-based machines is Ethernet. Currently mainly in use for distributed audio and large-scale networked systems, the protocol has been championed by Merging Technologies. “There are a number of audio-over-IP protocols now established in the pro-audio market that use Ethernet as the connection – the main players being Ravenna, Dante and Livewire,” details Paul Mortimer, managing director of Merging’s UK distributor eMerging. “Compatible devices can be connected using a simple point-to-point connection or via an existing standard IT network infrastructure.​
“The main advantages of Ethernet-based formats are the ability to run much longer distances between devices; being able to take audio signals from one source and route to many destinations; and sample accurate clocking from one master device on the network. Thunderbolt 2 and USB 3 offer the ability to connect to Ethernet, so would also be compatible with networked audio devices. With the introduction of AES67, all of these audio-over-IP formats will talk to each other, so enabling one harmonious compatible format.”​
PreSonus could also make use of the Ethernet protocol in the future, states Smith. “Audio networking solutions hold great promise – especially for higher-end products. The ability to connect audio with Cat cables for long runs is a huge advantage for audio transports. Being able to pull any stream off the network to record makes them great for larger installations and super-high channel count situations,” he notes.​
Perrey says that Universal Audio is also looking ahead. “Thunderbolt 3 was just recently announced, allowing for even more bandwidth over a USB Type-C connector, and it will be backwards-compatible with USB 3.0 as well as Thunderbolt,” he explains. “It feels like the natural progression of the protocol, and reinforces our decision to use it as the connector for our scalable system of Apollo interfaces.”
The prospect of a single protocol that provides all the capabilities that engineers might require in their audio interface is a beguiling one, but also one that is unlikely to bring to an end the heated discussions between manufacturers over the best way to implement the emerging underlying technology in future products.​

 
 
You see with ethernet it's every manufacturer having their own protocols - with TB3 Intel will set the protocol.  This makes sense since they are the ones designing the MB chipsets and CPU's that these schemes have to interact with.
There are a number of audio-over-IP protocols now established in the pro-audio market that use Ethernet as the connection – the main players being Ravenna, Dante and Livewire,” details Paul Mortimer, managing director of Merging’s UK distributor eMerging. “Compatible devices can be connected 

 
Apr 25, 2016 at 10:27 PM Post #26 of 37
I'll believe this when I see it. It certainly seems like it should be the superior protocol but that means nothing for adoption.

Look at the horrible DRM/ terrible technical format that is HDMI.


Well I can undertand your skeptisim - you are right on the DRM front - damn MP3 compression - killed SACD.
 
The big hurdle is getting those lazy b-tards at MS to do a little extra work for the $100's of Billions they suck out of our pockets.
 
I mean no USB 2.0 Audio native support in WIN10 - ridiculus!
 
But if they ever do get a little ambitious - and support TB3 in WIN10 that would be the catalyst.  At least Intel is trying to move the ball up the field.
 
And they both need it, judging from their recent earnings reports.
 
Apr 28, 2016 at 3:36 PM Post #27 of 37
http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2015/11/4/aes67-what-is-it-and-why-should-you-care  TB3 will be AES67 compliant...
 
 

What Is AES67?

  1. It is an interoperability standard
  2. It is for audio transport only
  3. It isn't a complete system. AES 67 is a feature or option in a wider audio system which can fulfil other tasks such as routing, monitoring, discovery or system control.

Why All The Fuss About AES67?

It is deployable - It is very limited in its scope. It does audio transport and that's all, by audio transport I mean moving audio around a network, I'm not talking about tape machine style transport controls. As a result it is easier to get adopted by third parties. More importantly it is Layer 3 and compatible with any modern gigabit switch and therefore doesn't present as many issues with existing IT infrastructure. The tight focus on the "network" part of network audio, using existing hardware has meant that it has come to market quickly and in an area which is developing as quickly as this that is a big advantage.
 

 
Jul 15, 2016 at 1:05 AM Post #28 of 37
Just got a Akitio Thunder 2 external PCI-E enclosure.
https://www.akitio.com/expansion/thunder2-pcie-box
It has a separate 12V power supply. I'm waiting for a teddy Pardo.

I have a Lynx AES16e in it and use the Corning Thunderbolt fiber cable for complete isolation to the Mac Mini.

It sounds great!

A side grade from the Rednet 3, so far. Let's see if the LPSU puts it ahead.
 
Jul 17, 2016 at 12:45 PM Post #29 of 37
Just got a Akitio Thunder 2 external PCI-E enclosure.
https://www.akitio.com/expansion/thunder2-pcie-box
It has a separate 12V power supply. I'm waiting for a teddy Pardo.

I have a Lynx AES16e in it and use the Corning Thunderbolt fiber cable for complete isolation to the Mac Mini.

It sounds great!

A side grade from the Rednet 3, so far. Let's see if the LPSU puts it ahead.


Interesting report - this will be a growing avenue for computer audio as TB3 takes hold over the next year. 
 
Interesting post over on GearSluz earlier this year:
  Thunderbolt audio support in Windows 10

Hi all

I'm sharing this here because I know there's a lot of interest in TB in Windows. Normally we wouldn't make a formal statement about a device interface (they just start appearing on PCs), but Thunderbolt is a special case in MI, and I know you all will appreciate the information.

Please note that this post is only about audio. We haven't yet made any announcements about support for non-audio Thunderbolt devices in Windows 10.

In November 2015, with the Windows 10 Threshold 2 (TH2) release, Microsoft completed the necessary engineering work to ensure secure and reliable Thunderbolt 3 Audio devices can be built for Windows 10 PCs. This work involved base PCIe work, audio work to respond to rebalancing, and security work for Thunderbolt in general. We didn't talk much about it, though, because we had a lot of testing, especially security testing, to do.

Since then, we’ve seen a number of in-progress and in-market PCs with Thunderbolt 3 ports on them, many new at CES. These PCs use the supported combination of the Intel Alpine Ridge chipset, Skylake, and the USB-C connector. I myself just built a new PC with an ASUS motherboard that includes Alpine Ridge, Skylake, and Thunderbolt 3.

What is required to use a Thunderbolt 3 audio device on Windows?

To accomplish this, the device manufacturer must create a Windows 10 PCIe driver that implements two new interfaces. The documentation for this is here: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...(v=vs.85).aspx

Hardware developers with experience building PCIe drivers on Windows will find the Thunderbolt 3 additions to be an incremental change. The driver requirement is on par with what is required for OSX support of Thunderbolt devices.

What does this mean for existing "legacy" Thunderbolt devices?

The convergence of Thunderbolt 3 + Alpine Ridge + USB-C makes it easier for PC OEMs to create PCs with a known and solid supported Thunderbolt configuration, doing away with the ambiguities and BIOS configuration challenges of the past.

Microsoft is working with Intel to identify the potential compatibility approaches for devices with Thunderbolt 1 & 2 and the Thunderbolt/Mini-DP connector (hubs, adapters, etc.). Although those devices (with appropriate drivers)will continue to work in Windows 10 TH2, because of limitations around resource acquisition and daisy chaining, and the instability they can introduce, Microsoft cannot officially support them on Windows 10. Any support will be up to the PC manufacturers or hardware vendors using those interfaces. We do generally recommend that if you use those Thunderbolt 1 / 2 devices on Windows PCs, you keep the Thunderbolt interface dedicated to your audio use, and not mix in other daisy-chained devices. Recommendations may vary based on device and motherboard, of course.

The Alpine Ridge chipset is relatively new to the market. We are continuing to refine and update our Thunderbolt support in the future with an eye towards continued stability and performance. We’re continuing to work closely with Intel and with PC OEMs to ensure Thunderbolt 3 on Windows 10 is a great experience.

Thunderbolt 3 on USB-C is particularly exciting to us due to the increased bandwidth it offers to our pro audio and musician customers, all with a simplified connector that works across everything from custom-built PCs to thin and light laptops and tablets. Considering the significant uptake from our OEMs, they seem to agree.
smile.gif


I've contacted a number of device manufacturers already. If you are a device manufacturer that I haven't yet reached, and have questions, please contact pete dot brown at Microsoft dot com.

If you are a customer, I ask that you give the audio interface/peripheral manufacturers some time to form their own plan of action on this. I know folks are champing at the bit for Thunderbolt devices on Windows, but the devices will not be available overnight. Feel free to express your interest, of course.
smile.gif


https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/1064429-thunderbolt-support-windows-10-a.html
 

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