disappointed with DT770 80 ohm headphones
Feb 14, 2016 at 12:14 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 29

n4te

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I recently got Beyerdynamic DT770 80 ohm headphones. The bass is very lacking, which is the opposite of what I expected based on what everyone says about this model.
 
I'm driving them with a Zoom UAC-2 which lists specs: 33 ohm output impedance, +8 dBu @ 0dBFs max output level, and 20mW + 20mW @ 32Ω. How do I choose headphones using those numbers?
 
I've read the output impedance should be <= the headphones impedance / 8. My headphones are 80 ohms, so 80 / 8 = 10 ohms. My Zoom is much higher at 33 ohms, so maybe this is the problem? Why would Zoom release a DAC that can't properly drive various headphones?!
 
Should I return the 80 ohms and get a different version?
32 / 8 = 4 ohms
80 / 8 = 10 ohms
250 / 8 = 31.25 ohms
600 / 8 = 75 ohms
So is the DT770 600 ohm version what I need? I don't mind the high impedance since I have other cans for use with mobile devices. However, I chose the 80 ohm version because I prefer a little bass heaviness. Does the 600 ohm version also provide this?
 
How does the max output level and XmW + YmW @ ZΩ affect choosing headphones?
 
Feb 14, 2016 at 4:49 PM Post #2 of 29
  I recently got Beyerdynamic DT770 80 ohm headphones. The bass is very lacking, which is the opposite of what I expected based on what everyone says about this model.
 
I'm driving them with a Zoom UAC-2 which lists specs: 33 ohm output impedance, +8 dBu @ 0dBFs max output level, and 20mW + 20mW @ 32Ω. How do I choose headphones using those numbers?
 
I've read the output impedance should be <= the headphones impedance / 8. My headphones are 80 ohms, so 80 / 8 = 10 ohms. My Zoom is much higher at 33 ohms, so maybe this is the problem? Why would Zoom release a DAC that can't properly drive various headphones?!
 
Should I return the 80 ohms and get a different version?
32 / 8 = 4 ohms
80 / 8 = 10 ohms
250 / 8 = 31.25 ohms
600 / 8 = 75 ohms
So is the DT770 600 ohm version what I need? I don't mind the high impedance since I have other cans for use with mobile devices. However, I chose the 80 ohm version because I prefer a little bass heaviness. Does the 600 ohm version also provide this?
 
How does the max output level and XmW + YmW @ ZΩ affect choosing headphones?

 
Those specs are pretty bad indeed.
 
20mW + 20mW @32 Ohm is little power
33 Ohm output impedance is pretty high
 
250Ohm and 600Ohm versions need significantly more voltage than 32 and 80 Ohm versions to sound at the same level, so best chances are the UAC-2 won't have that kind of voltage for them...
(Damping Factor will be all right but they'll sound really shy (and/or distorted) due to lack of voltage swing)
 
So, among DT770s the 32 Ohm version is surely your best bet. 
UAC-2 will drive them just fine if specs are all right.
The main effect of the low damping factor will be a slight boost in the mid-bass, making the overall sound a tad warmer and more forgiving.
 
If you really want a headphone that your amplifier can drive with ease then skip the DT770 since even the 32 Ohm version is pretty power demanding.
 
Probably the best match for your current setup (and based on your preferences) is the V-Moda M100 (Powerful Bass - Very easy to drive - Flat Impedance vs Frequency)
 
If you can't get that then headphones like the Beyer Custom One and the Yamaha's Pro400/500 might serve you well.
Again, the main effect of low damping factor will be a slight boost in the mid-bass.
 
Feb 14, 2016 at 5:00 PM Post #3 of 29
If you're using them at a computer (only), you can get by with a Sound Blaster Z or Xonar DG(X), both of which will power the 770-80s just fine (I have a DG and it works very well with mine). If you want to go USB, check into Schiit Magni+Modi, Fulla, or a JDSLabs O2+ODAC, or a FiiO E17.

Any of those will drive your headphones to a point where you'll be happier with them.
 
Feb 14, 2016 at 5:11 PM Post #4 of 29
When I thought I finally got this with ohm and how impedance worked on headphones I read this and get all confused again haha.
 
Isn't it like this:

30 ohm ~ Working on everything from mobile devices to stereos/computers
80-300 ohm ~ Working on computers with soundcards/amps/stereos
600 ohm ~ Working (only?) well with proper soundcards/amps
 
Or am I totally wrong?
 
Sorry for asking this in your thread mate but it seems you guys know your stuff when it comes to headphones and impedance and stuff.
 
Feb 14, 2016 at 5:41 PM Post #5 of 29
Me x3, so the Zoom has little power and high output impedance -- ie, its headphone output just really sucks? That makes me sad. :frowning2: Do you recommend I swap for the 32 ohm DT770s or go for something else that has lower impedance? I don't want to get the DT770s if I could do better with something else, considering the Zoom's limitations.
 
If the output impedance / 8 rule of thumb is true, wouldn't I need < 4 ohm output impedance for the 32 ohm DT770s to be safe? The potential ramifications would be lower max SPL (I don't listen super loud though), unpredictable frequency response, and worse bass (boomier, less accurate, less low frequencies). In practice, how bad do you think it will be to use 32 ohm headphones with a 33 ohm output impedance?
 
liquidzoo, I tried an Asus Xonar Essence STX II 7.1 before getting the DT770s and had crazy interference from my video card. I couldn't hear it through my Hercules XPS DJ 80 speakers but after upgrading to JBL LSR305s could hear it non-stop. I won't try an internal card again. Plus I really don't want another piece of hardware just to plug in headphones. Ideally I can get something compatible with the Zoom. I'm pretty pissed the Zoom's headphone output is so bad. :frowning2: The rest of it is very nice.
 
drakelito, google "nwavguy headphone impedance". Rule of thumb is your audio output impedance should be <= headphone ohms / 8. I don't know what the max output level and mW @ ohms specs mean or how they are relevant to headphone specs. Can anyone explain?
 
Feb 14, 2016 at 6:28 PM Post #6 of 29
drakelito, google "nwavguy headphone impedance". Rule of thumb is your audio output impedance should be <= headphone ohms / 8. I don't know what the max output level and mW @ ohms specs mean or how they are relevant to headphone specs. Can anyone explain?

nwav... is named Voldemort around here (He who cannot be named)
He's banned from Head-Fi and moderators used to warn people for linking to he's blog and so on...
Not sure what's their take now that he seems vanished. Just be careful ; )
 
Back on topic:
  Me x3, so the Zoom has little power and high output impedance -- ie, its headphone output just really sucks?
 
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Me x3: Comparatively speaking, yes.
 
For instance, the 70 dollar Fiio E10K USB DAC/Amp is able to provide something like 200mW into 32Ohm load (instead of 20mW), 2.5Vrms into high impedance loads and has an output impedance under 2 Ohm. 
 
That said, the UAC-2 might work fine with some headphones so you can keep it and still enjoy it. Sound Quality won't be ruined if you pick the right headphone.
 
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That makes me sad. :frowning2: Do you recommend I swap for the 32 ohm DT770s or go for something else that has lower impedance? I don't want to get the DT770s if I could do better with something else, considering the Zoom's limitations.
 
If the output impedance / 8 rule of thumb is true, wouldn't I need < 4 ohm output impedance for the 32 ohm DT770s to be safe? The potential ramifications would be lower max SPL (I don't listen super loud though), unpredictable frequency response, and worse bass (boomier, less accurate, less low frequencies). In practice, how bad do you think it will be to use 32 ohm headphones with a 33 ohm output impedance?
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Me x3: "The rule" makes sure you won't hear the effects of low damping factor, but these effects are not as bad in real life as some suggest. More so, there's plenty of cases were people prefer a relatively low damping factor because of the added warmth/punch. There's no such as thing as unpredictable frequency response once you know the shape of the impedance vs frequency plot of your headphones. For the Beyers DT, this is a slight bump in the mid-bass and a slight raise in the highest treble (well over 10kHz). So when you pair them with an amp with low damping factor what you get is a slight boost in the mid-bass and a slight boost (almost inaudible) in the highest treble.
 
I've tried my DT880 250 Ohm and DT990 250 Ohm plugged into the headphone jack of a Yamaha Integrated Amplifier with an output impedance of 470 Ohm.
They sounded just like that, warmer, more forgiving, not the last word in transparency in the bass region but still clear and very enjoyable.
 
If specs are true, the UAC-3 will drive DT770 32 Ohm version just fine (not much extra room, but fine)
 
The V-Moda M100 has a flat impedance and thus it's almost not affected at all by the low damping factor. You'll hear it as it is.
And it's very easy to drive, 20mW is tons of power for the M100.
 
Similarly the Yamaha Pro400 and Pro500 are well regarded bassy and very easy to drive headphones.
 
In the end, personal preferences play an important role, but this are all good alternatives.

 
Feb 14, 2016 at 7:23 PM Post #7 of 29
Heh, I burnt some time reading about the Voldemort drama. I can't believe people on the internet disagree?! :wink:
 
Thanks for the explanations, I feel a bit better now about the Zoom UAC-2.
 
I reconsidered adding a preamp, but I'd be annoyed if I had to switch sources to use my headphones. I could use something like the Schiit Magni which looks like it works in the analog domain, but it seems silly to 1) spend another $200 (I'm not in the US), 2) have yet another device on my desk, and 3) come out of the DAC and go into another device.
 
I'd really prefer to use the Zoom if possible, so that means I start by returning the DT770 (not cheaply done either, it's hard living in the butthole of the Earth :p). The V-Moda M-100 was on my short list, so now I'm back to being torn between that and the 32 ohm DT770. I'll have to give it some more thought.
 
Feb 14, 2016 at 7:32 PM Post #8 of 29
I've read that the 32 ohm DT770 has a bit less bass than the 80 ohm, which was the whole reason I choose the 80 ohm (foolishly expecting the DAC to be able to drive it). This makes me lean toward the V-Moda M-100.
 
Feb 14, 2016 at 7:39 PM Post #9 of 29
  I've read that the 32 ohm DT770 has a bit less bass than the 80 ohm, which was the whole reason I choose the 80 ohm (foolishly expecting the DAC to be able to drive it). This makes me lean toward the V-Moda M-100.

Look:

While both look similarly bassy at first glance, the V-Moda is significantly softer in the treble region and thus you can raise the volume a tad more and get more perceived bass (Overall the V-Moda has a darker/softer sound signature).
 
What's good about the Fiio E10k (DAC/AMP) is that it's cheap, pretty powerful, and comes with a bass boost switch.
 
Feb 16, 2016 at 8:17 AM Post #10 of 29
I've now ordered the V-Moda M-100! Thanks for all your help! :)
 
The E10k does look pretty cool, but I don't want to switch sources.
 
For kicks I emailed Zoom asking what kind of headphones they recommend given the UAC-2 specs. They said they don't have any recommendations and that I should contact Sweetwater. Blah.
 
Feb 16, 2016 at 11:16 AM Post #11 of 29
  I've now ordered the V-Moda M-100! Thanks for all your help! :)
 
The E10k does look pretty cool, but I don't want to switch sources.
 
For kicks I emailed Zoom asking what kind of headphones they recommend given the UAC-2 specs. They said they don't have any recommendations and that I should contact Sweetwater. Blah.

You're welcome, share your impressions!
 
Happy Listening!
beerchug.gif

 
Feb 16, 2016 at 11:33 AM Post #12 of 29
 
Quote:
Me x3: "The rule" makes sure you won't hear the effects of low damping factor, but these effects are not as bad in real life as some suggest. More so, there's plenty of cases were people prefer a relatively low damping factor because of the added warmth/punch. There's no such as thing as unpredictable frequency response once you know the shape of the impedance vs frequency plot of your headphones. For the Beyers DT, this is a slight bump in the mid-bass and a slight raise in the highest treble (well over 10kHz). So when you pair them with an amp with low damping factor what you get is a slight boost in the mid-bass and a slight boost (almost inaudible) in the highest treble.
 
I've tried my DT880 250 Ohm and DT990 250 Ohm plugged into the headphone jack of a Yamaha Integrated Amplifier with an output impedance of 470 Ohm.
They sounded just like that, warmer, more forgiving, not the last word in transparency in the bass region but still clear and very enjoyable.
 
If specs are true, the UAC-3 will drive DT770 32 Ohm version just fine (not much extra room, but fine)
 
The V-Moda M100 has a flat impedance and thus it's almost not affected at all by the low damping factor. You'll hear it as it is.
And it's very easy to drive, 20mW is tons of power for the M100.
 
Similarly the Yamaha Pro400 and Pro500 are well regarded bassy and very easy to drive headphones.
 
In the end, personal preferences play an important role, but this are all good alternatives.


you're equivocating two slightly dissimilar things: combined voltage drop and damping factor.  
 
A headphone with a flat impedance curve won't "be almost unaffected by lack of damping factor."  What impedance curves tell you is the power demands the headphone places on an amp, and how steady it needs its voltage supply to be over a range of impedances.  The HD650, for example, needs an amp with very little voltage drop, so it needs an amp that has relatively similar amounts of voltage* available at its average impedance (300 ohms) and its peak impedance (500 ohms @ 100 Hz), otherwise it experiences clipped bass, which sounds wooly and lifeless.  This is why Sennheiser engineers, despite the HD6XX series having relatively high impedance, say their headphones are designed for 0 ohm output impedance amps, because while damping factor isn't an issue, voltage drop is.  A headphone with a flat impedance curve, on the other hand, doesn't have this worry, and you only need to concern yourself with the amp's power delivery at a single impedance and damping factor.  The larger the amp's output impedance, the more important this becomes, as voltage drop becomes comparatively larger.  With a 0 ohm output impedance amp (practically defined as anything with output impedance of 1 ohm or less), voltage drop is stable, and the headphone performs without any voltage drop across the frequency response, ie you get the frequency response you bargained for.  Some people like the sound of some headphones with a large voltage drop because of this FR alteration, but in my experience, it almost always does more damage than good, as you're literally getting clipping in certain frequencies but not others.  
 
Damping factor, on the other hand, has to do with a headphone's ability to "bounce back" against the impedance of the source, and thus deliver quick, dynamic performance.  Under-damped headphones sound the opposite of punchy, instead sounding much more "slushy."  Now, yes, some people prefer under-damped headphones, because it can cause the bass to be very boomy, with longer decay, while some headphones can sound overly dry and analytical if they're properly damped.  On some headphones it's not particularly a big deal.  My Shure SRH840, for example, can take output impedances a good bit above its recommended 6 ohms and sound fine.  But my THX00 starts to sound wooly with any amp over 1 ohm, even though it should be okay with anything up to 4 ohms.  
 
Also, for the OP, the Zoom is one of the worst headphone amps people pay money for.  It's got the double downside of being high output impedance *and* underpowered.  Honestly it will probably sound worse than simply playing out of your phone.  That isn't to say it can't sound okay in certain scenarios, but to be blunt, it's a piece of junk.  Literally the only things you really need a headphone amp to do is provide enough power with a low enough output impedance to allow your headphones to shine.  The Zoom fails in both of those regards.  Its high output impedance means that you get a large voltage drop and insufficient damping.  This will render your headphones comparatively lifeless in comparison to an amp with more appropriate specifications.  I hate to be blunt, but you really shouldn't worry about spending money on good headphones if you're using the Zoom.
 
That being said, the UAC-2 is a good DAC.  I think of it as a DAC that has an emergency amp built in.
 
* [note, I originally said current here, meant to say voltage since I am talking about voltage drop here]
 
Feb 16, 2016 at 12:46 PM Post #13 of 29
Thanks for joining in. Let's explore what it would be like if I got a decent headphone amp.
 
I know I could get another USB device which has another DAC and will show up in my OS as a second audio output, but I'd prefer not to be switching outputs in software. I go between speakers/headphones often. What are the alternatives?
 
I found the Schiit Magni 2 (and I assume there are other similar devices). How would I hook this up? Would I go out of the Zoom's headphone port? Would this hurt the quality I hear in my headphones?
 
Would it be better to use something like the Schiit Asgard 2 (just using Schiit as an example, again I assume there are others)? In that case would I go out of the Zoom's speaker outputs, into the Asgard 2, then to my monitors? Would this hurt the quality I hear in my monitors? Does the Asgard 2 volume knob affect its speaker outputs?
 
If you're interested or just bored, I posted over here (since it wasn't regarding headphones) about a horrible buzz problem I'm having.
 
Feb 16, 2016 at 1:13 PM Post #14 of 29
  Thanks for joining in. Let's explore what it would be like if I got a decent headphone amp.
 
I know I could get another USB device which has another DAC and will show up in my OS as a second audio output, but I'd prefer not to be switching outputs in software. I go between speakers/headphones often. What are the alternatives?
 
I found the Schiit Magni 2 (and I assume there are other similar devices). How would I hook this up? Would I go out of the Zoom's headphone port? Would this hurt the quality I hear in my headphones?
 
Would it be better to use something like the Schiit Asgard 2 (just using Schiit as an example, again I assume there are others)? In that case would I go out of the Zoom's speaker outputs, into the Asgard 2, then to my monitors? Would this hurt the quality I hear in my monitors? Does the Asgard 2 volume knob affect its speaker outputs?
 
If you're interested or just bored, I posted over here (since it wasn't regarding headphones) about a horrible buzz problem I'm having.


You would preferably go out of the Zoom's balanced output (on the back of the unit).  You'd need a cable that would convert this dual 1/4" TRS balanced output into unbalanced RCA input (these aren't especially common, but aren't impossible to find either).  This would then route to your amp via unbalanced RCA (or you could go with a higher end amp that has balanced input, which is the best option, but would also raise the price of the amp you're looking at).  You could then go with a Magni2 Uber/Asgard/any schiit amp higher than the regular magni (or any amp with RCA outputs) to connect your speakers.  In that configuration the Magni2Uber would act as a pre-amp for your active monitors.  You definitely don't want to feed your amp with the headphone output.
 
Your buzz issue sounds like USB crappification, and I think something like the Schiit Wyrd would fix it.  This problem is common with USB bus powered DACs (like the Zoom) hooked to crappy USB ports.  
 
Feb 16, 2016 at 1:56 PM Post #15 of 29
Can you give some examples of balanced amps that would work?
 
The Schiit Wyrd seems to be USB 2.0, which I guess would make the Zoom work as 2.0 rather than 3.0 it supports. It's a little unfortunate, though I doubt it would matter much.
 
Another option is to replace the Zoom with a single device that does all that I want. I want a high quality USB DAC, high quality speaker and headphone outputs, a large volume knob on the front (not a tiny knob and not on top), a mic input, and no dancing lights. It's surprising how hard it is to find a high quality option that meets these criteria!
 
When I found the Zoom I was also looking at the Focusrite Scarlett Solo (mystery specs) or 2i2 (specs seem OK) or Steinberg UR22mkII (mystery specs, tiny volume knob) or PreSonus AudioBox iOne (mystery specs). I guess a Schiit Modi + Magni could work, though I think the Magni volume would control both the speakers and headphones.
 

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