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Ety power handling and other questions

post #1 of 30
2/24/02 at 6:01pm
Thread Starter 
Odd question: how loud can the drivers (mechanically) go? Hard to measure, I agree. In general, is it one of those things where if I'm not in pain, the drivers are not in pain? Or is it possible to overdrive these accidentally? I normally listen around 60-80 dB.

I also have some other dumb questions: generally in the world of speakers, something with a higher impedance is easier on the amplifier -- thus, people like 8 ohm speakers better than monsters that dip into the 1 ohm range and require multiple Krells. Why is it then, that the 4S, which has a higher impedance than the 4P, is harder to drive?

Secondly: I understand that the only difference between the two 4S/4P models is the wire (and consequently the resistance). Am I correct in assuming that the different countours in frequency response between the two canalphones are due then entirely to the resistors?

(If so, are there any particular brands I should buy when I diy? or just a matter of finding the most expensive Caddock or Mills I can?)
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post #2 of 30
2/24/02 at 7:04pm
According to the Etymotic website, Ety4P/S have a maximum output of 122 dB SPL. Enough to hurt you if you drive them really loud. But in general I've found that I listen at lower levels with Etys than other cans.
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post #3 of 30
2/24/02 at 7:21pm
I agree - the Etymotics do encourage you to listen to music at lower levels than with others headphones. I used to listen at pretty much headbanging levels once upon a time but since getting the Ety's I've found that lower levels still give you all the detail and tonal accuracy.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it proved that Etymotic headphones actually protect you against hearing damage when listening to music through headphones.
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post #4 of 30
2/24/02 at 7:32pm
Peddler, I think you're right. One of the things that prompted me to look into Etys was an article I read in an audio magazine that said that Steve Miller (of the Steve Miller Band) bought the musician's earplugs version of the Etys for all his crew because he was afraid that having them use regular closed cans would expose him to legal liability for hearing damage. Apparently there are scientific studies showing that canal-type phones are less damaging to hearing. It's really worth protecting your hearing.
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post #5 of 30
2/25/02 at 2:46am
I've been nagging people at Etymotic for information about potential hearing damage. I'm a little paranoid about canal-phones. If you manage to find any of those scientific studies, PLEASE post them. I haven't been able to find anything.

The Pro Audio version of the ER-4S is marketed as Sensaphonics Prophonic IV and is the only headphone in the Sensaphonics line to be produced out of house. It's supposedly expensive.
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post #6 of 30
2/25/02 at 3:03am
Found the article... it's archived on Etymotics' website:
http://www.etymotic.com/articles_rev...agearticle.pdf

Highlight quotation:
"These personal monitors were originally simple
ear-bud headphones, a concept later refined
into custom-molded earpieces, similar to those
made for hearing aids. Garcia reports that in the
early ’90s Steve Miller recognized that as a bandleader
(employer), he could be held legally liable
for hearing damage to his entire crew, and he
invested in research indicating that IEMs have the
potential to offer better hearing protection than
room monitors. (They can also cause more
damage if misused.) Miller also required his
band members to get annual hearing tests,
and he specified in his contracts that house
levels be kept under 90 dB."
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post #7 of 30
2/25/02 at 3:10am
Quote:
Originally posted by Wodgy

"They can also cause more damage if misused.) Miller also required his
band members to get annual hearing tests,and he specified in his contracts that house levels be kept under 90 dB."
Thus proving that I do have reasonable cause for concern. I don't know, inheritely, what 90db sounds like without any point of reference, so I'm still going to somehow find a way to measure these things before I become comfortable with the idea.
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post #8 of 30
2/25/02 at 3:50am
Sorry, the last sentence was out of context. If you download the article and read the surrounding paragraphs, "house levels" means the ambient noise in the studio/performance environment, not in the canalphones/IEMs. There is, however, some discussion later in the article that a few people still liked to crank things up too high.

By the way, it is possible to measure SPLs with Etys, with minor assumptions about your current hearing and the linearity of your rig. Create a sound file on your computer using Cool Edit Pro or something similar playing a test tone at -80db (that's minus 80db). Burn it to a CD. Play it through your headphones. Adjust the volume on your amp until the sound is just beyond your threshold of hearing. Remember this position on your amp's volume control. The maximum sound pressure level at that level is 80db. You can listen safely. This measurement technique depends on the fact that the threshold of healthy human hearing is close to 0db, which is true from what I've read.
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post #9 of 30
2/25/02 at 4:42am
As others have said, I find that I listen to music at substantially lower levels when listening to Etys. The extra isolation means you don't have to turn them up as loud to hear every detail.
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post #10 of 30
2/25/02 at 4:51am
I find myself dialing the volume down more often than up with the Ety's. There's not much competition with noise and the details are all available at levels that don't come close to discomfort. I'd worry a lot more about open headphones damaging hearing and most of all about concerts and sustained loud noises doing so than about the Ety's.

You do have to trust your ears to tell you when they're hurting, and cut the volume back just as soon as you get that sensation. Otherwise, you might accomodate to the damaging level as your hearing is desensitized, first temporarily and then irreversibly. (Check Chych's posts.)
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post #11 of 30
2/25/02 at 5:04am
Quote:
Originally posted by Wes
I find myself dialing the volume down more often than up with the Ety's. There's not much competition with noise and the details are all available at levels that don't come close to discomfort. I'd worry a lot more about open headphones damaging hearing and most of all about concerts and sustained loud noises doing so than about the Ety's.

You do have to trust your ears to tell you when they're hurting, and cut the volume back just as soon as you get that sensation. Otherwise, you might accomodate to the damaging level as your hearing is desensitized, first temporarily and then irreversibly. (Check Chych's posts.)
I do understand the rhetoric that's been re-posted about having the *sensation* that you're running the Etymotic lower than normal, but I don't know that anyone has qualified that sensation with a scientific measurement.

I also understand that other things besides Etymotic ear canal headphones can damage my hearing. The difference is that with a concert, I can easily say to myself, "Wow, relative to other things I'm hearing, THAT noise is way too loud" and plop in the (Etymotic, no less) earplugs. Likewise, I can easily poke one ear out of a set of headphones and hear normal sounds in a room and sort of guage how loud the headphones are. Because Etymotics isolate so well and because they are located so close to the eardrum, I don't know that my PERCEPTION of how loud they are is accurate and no, I don't really trust my ears to tell me that in this case.

Chalk it up to paranoia if you want, but of all my reservations about the Etymotics (discomfort, longevity, microphonics, ease of insertion/removal, cost), this is the one that's making me hold off on ordering them the most. I understand that everyone subjectively believes there's nothing to worry about. Back that up with something factual and scientific so that I can share that belief and we're on.
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post #12 of 30
2/25/02 at 5:41am
Well, I gave a scientific way to calibrate for 80db a few posts ago...

Note that there is a big margin of safety in the measurement technique I described. With my technique, you're calibrating for 80db *maximum*, but OSHA guidelines for safety are with respect to *average* SPL, which means the technique errs on the side of caution. With rock, 80db max probably works out to be 60db average, and with classical even less.

If you really don't trust your amp/CDP to be very linear, you can use a tone generator. This technique is how some audiologists measure hearing, so it does have a quantitative basis.

For what it's worth, I'll often take off my Etys after a long listening session and be amazed at how *loud* everything around me (computer fan, etc.) is. Everything sounds much louder than normal. To me, this is further evidence that I'm listening at low levels with Etys (i.e. my ears have adjusted to the low volume, which seems to be lower than my normal ambient environment).
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post #13 of 30
2/25/02 at 5:42am
Quote:
I do understand the rhetoric that's been re-posted about having the *sensation* that you're running the Etymotic lower than normal, but I don't know that anyone has qualified that sensation with a scientific measurement.
First, think about it logically. The reason we turn the volume up is because we can't hear, or because we can't hear the details well enough. On speakers, that's usually because of other sounds/noise/etc. In a quiet room, we listen to the music at a much lower volume than we do in a noisy room. Same with headphones... if there is external noise, we turn the headphones up. Heck, I listen to my "open" headphones at a significantly lower volume at night than I do during the day, simply because it's quieter in my neighborhood at night

If this theoretical argument isn't enough, then consider that I have used several "open" headphones that have approximately the same impedance as my Etys. The volume control on the same amp is set *much* lower with the Etys when I listen.

Finally, if *that* doesn't convince you, PM Don Wilson of Etymotic Research, and ask him this question. I'm sure he has SPL measurements to put your mind at ease.
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post #14 of 30
2/25/02 at 10:43am
Quote:
Originally posted by MacDEF
Finally, if *that* doesn't convince you, PM Don Wilson of Etymotic Research, and ask him this question. I'm sure he has SPL measurements to put your mind at ease.
I did this last week and he didn't have that specific information but had lots of other good information that I'm intending to post as soon as I get around to formatting it.
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post #15 of 30
2/25/02 at 10:53am

Off Topic

I was watching MTV2 last night and caught the Beasty Boys video for "Intergalactic". It features a robot battling a crab-like creature ala the old Godzilla movies. I couldn't help but think that I had seen this robot before. Then it hit me - MacDEF's avatar!!

MacDEF, is this where you got it from?
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