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Beethoven Symphonies - Page 30

post #436 of 944
7/30/05 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot
I think the problem is judging them by warhorses like Beethoven or Tchaikovsky symphonies. What motivation is there to do more than a routine job when that particular path has been trod so many times before?
And still, there is so much music that has been ignored that these younger maestros could be playing and exploring if only they knew about it and were encouraged. I would love to see a 10-year ban on all Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Schumann, Schubert, Mozart (!), Haydn and company and have start going through Arnold, Balakirev, Bax, Glazunov, Raff, Schmidt, Nielsen, Sibelius, Holmboe, Tubin, Kokkonen, Prokofieff just to name a few. Then when we come back to the Viennese classics, we'd appreciate them more, they would be fresh and the conductors would be able to look at them anew. Never happen.
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post #437 of 944
7/30/05 at 8:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbhaub
But who is there of the calibre you speak? Maazel, Masur, Abbado, Davis are at the end of their careers, and all are decidedly 2nd rate compared to the giants mentioned (Walter, Stokowski, Mitropolous, etc). There are some exciting younger conductors, to be sure. But can anyone honestly, and seriously, consider Conlon, Salonen, Harding, and friends the equal of past generations? No way. For many reasons (read Lebrecht), the art of conducting is being diluted and homogenized -- but not lost. There in no one alive today who is even worthy to mentioned with Toscanini, Furtwangler, Kleiber, Mitropolous, Barbirolli or Bernstein. Many of the younger conductors have great ears, fine techniques, schmoozing ability, and more, but it's that undefinable quality involving traditions, style and such that has been irretrievable lost. Oh, there will still be great concerts and recordings, but legendary? I don't think so. Masur is certainly competent. The perfect Kapellmeister. His recordings and performances are usually well-drilled, accurate, smooth and devoid of real excitement and fire. Just listen to his desultory Tchaikovsky cycle and you'll see what I mean. His Mahler 7th is the worst ever. His Prokofieff nice, and that's the problem. Erich Leinsdorf had an explanation as to what went wrong with conductors: they stopped training in the opera house. All of of the greats in the first half of the 20th C learned that way, and then things shifted (especially in America) to the concert hall, and too many conductors never spent time mastering their skill with opera. And now we see the results. Of course, A. Hitler didn't help either, but that's too off-topic. At least I have hope in Finland.


Norman Lebrecht has some interesting theories about where classical is headed. Of course, I am not in the cultural centers of London and New York, so I am - perhaps - underqualified to dismiss him out of hand. People have been calling classical dead for hundreds of years. The advent of Peter Gelb was preceded by that charlatan Bing and the huckster Wagner and so on. Are there as many greats today as there were in days gone by? Well, how many greats are there a generation? One? Two? Fifty? I think my point is clear. This current crop of the "best" (Levine, Barenboim, Boulez, Gardiner, Harnoncourt et al) is still active, though aging. Let's wait to see where the chips fall before we declare conducting dead. If Norm and his buddies can't wait, I sure can.

By the by, I got a '54 Bayreuth 9th with Furtwangler. It, on first pass, sounds interesting, I'm sure more will follow.
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post #438 of 944
7/30/05 at 8:53pm
Furtwangler is incredible. I love the puppet on a string film on the Art of Conducting video. Astounding.

See ya
Steve
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post #439 of 944
7/31/05 at 8:56pm
Ok, not dead...moribund. It used to be that conductors had outsized personalities (and egos) that were manifested in performances. Can you imagine someone today taking liberties with Beethoven like Stokowski? PLaying with Brahms tempi like Furtwangler? Or being as rude and nasty to players as Szell or Reiner (must have been something in that Hungarian water)? It's those personalities that I miss. Of course, the day of the dictator is over, and I suppose it's for the best. Today's conductors, like orchestras, are too alike, and they don't have the public recognition that ball players have. When was the last time any conductor was on the cover of Time?
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post #440 of 944
8/6/05 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunnyears
No, the B9 soloists are Helena Doese, soprano; Marga Schiml, alto; Peter Schreier,tenor; Theo Adam, bass. Chorus is Runfunkchor Leipzig and Chor der Staatsoper Dresden.

I don't know about your recording, but this one is probably the best sung ninth I've ever heard. The whole performance ranks up there with the top ones, but the singing really is the best, it shines like a diamond glowing in the dark. Sound quality is great too, not surprising for remastering of analog recordings. I'll be listening to more of the symphonies over time.

What's really nice is that they are German singers, so the word "Elysium" is pronounced correctly in German as e-lu-sium rather than e-li-sium. Even though I don't speak German, that has always struck me as a piece of carelessness whenever I hear non German singers and choruses doing the work.
Just picked up the Blomstedt set. Will report my impressions.
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post #441 of 944
8/11/05 at 9:33pm
New life for Harnoncourt/Teledec set
I puchased this 12+ years ago when first came out with rave reviews from all critics, but was so unhappy with sound I actually sold it. The balance was so far off unless you had balance control for stereo this set was useless.

However I recently discovered that newer versions made for BMG club have corrected this and sounds fine now on my stereo, not sure if newer Teledec versions sold now are corrected but I suspect they are.

Also made room for Rattle/VPO/EMI set
Since yourmusic.com was selling at great price I had to add to collection. I remember early in thread Tyson was not thrilled with this, but now I will see for myself.......newest Penguin Guide loves this set if that means anything.

Bunny will be perplexed.....why doesn't DA get the Blomstedt set????
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post #442 of 944
8/12/05 at 2:44am
Be wary of Penguin Guide! They seem to have a bias towards British performers, as does Gramophone magazine. They LOVE Rattle and rarely give him bad marks, which he most certainly deserves. I find his Mahler 2 vastly overrated, yet Penguin gives it a rosette. The Beethoven is hit and miss.
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post #443 of 944
8/12/05 at 3:34am
I have found Gramophone to be somewhat hit and miss, as with the Penguin Guide. At times, they are spot on and at other times, I have to shake my head.

Rattle tends to be a bit overrated, but he won't be the first conductor to be so. Of course, Beethoven cycles are rarely perfect in every movement of every symphony. Perhaps Rattle will do a Berlin cycle.
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post #444 of 944
8/12/05 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbhaub
Be wary of Penguin Guide! They seem to have a bias towards British performers, as does Gramophone magazine. They LOVE Rattle and rarely give him bad marks, which he most certainly deserves. I find his Mahler 2 vastly overrated, yet Penguin gives it a rosette. The Beethoven is hit and miss.
Rattle really has a small recorded output for as long as he has been recording for major labels........this is his only Beethoven set I have seen, and no Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Schumann, Schubert sets to be found???????

I quite like his Mahler 2nd but find his other Mahler recordings like 1,6,7,9 are not top contenders, best from his Mahler set are 2,3,4,5 with 8 just released and not heard yet.
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post #445 of 944
8/12/05 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel
New life for Harnoncourt/Teledec set
I puchased this 12+ years ago when first came out with rave reviews from all critics, but was so unhappy with sound I actually sold it. The balance was so far off unless you had balance control for stereo this set was useless.

However I recently discovered that newer versions made for BMG club have corrected this and sounds fine now on my stereo, not sure if newer Teledec versions sold now are corrected but I suspect they are.

Also made room for Rattle/VPO/EMI set
Since yourmusic.com was selling at great price I had to add to collection. I remember early in thread Tyson was not thrilled with this, but now I will see for myself.......newest Penguin Guide loves this set if that means anything.

Bunny will be perplexed.....why doesn't DA get the Blomstedt set????
Bunny is only perplexed about which bmg club has the harnoncourt beethoven symphonies! She has seen that Rattle at yourmusic and at that price she is considering it for herself. As for the Harnoncourt, I still have the original and aside from the sound I am not thrilled with the interpretations which are not his best work. His Mozart and Hayden are much better than his Beethoven. Harnoncourt does tend to the extremes -- either brilliant or execrable, but at least he flies without a net. As to the Blomstedt, I suppose in your good time you will come to them, if ever. You certainly have enough Beethoven cycles for any one person in the universe (if it is possible to have enough Beethoven cycles). They are a lot better than the Cluytens you recommended to me. (hehe)

As for the Rattle M8, I'm surprised you have not ordered it as it is at yourmusic as well. As are the Harnoncourt Haydn Paris symphonies and Bruckner 5 in SACD, and that is a recording no one should pass up. Btw, there are also some Thomas Fey Haydn recordings there and those are also excellent.
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post #446 of 944
8/12/05 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunnyears
Bunny is only perplexed about which bmg club has the harnoncourt beethoven symphonies!
Not currently in BMG club, but purchased used Harnoncourt set that was issued by BMG club previously.
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post #447 of 944
8/12/05 at 12:06pm
Okay! then I must have the corrected Harnoncourt as it dates from about 3 or 4 years ago.
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post #448 of 944
8/12/05 at 1:20pm
I agree with those who find the Rattle hit and miss. I find the widest miss to be the 7th, which is as plodding and earthbound a rendition as I've ever heard.
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post #449 of 944
8/12/05 at 1:39pm
Mark,

Is there anything truly outstanding about Rattle's cycle that make it attractive to me? I go through Beethoven cycles the way I go through chocolate bars, so I'm always on the lookout for one more.
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post #450 of 944
8/13/05 at 8:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunnyears
Mark,
Is there anything truly outstanding about Rattle's cycle that make it attractive to me? I go through Beethoven cycles the way I go through chocolate bars, so I'm always on the lookout for one more.
Ha.....there is no perfect set, just a myriad of performances that fall short in different areas and by varring degrees, pick your imperfection

The Rattle/EMI is well worth getting IMO, very similar to Abbado/BPO 2000 in that we have modern orchestra performing HIP style with leaner more clarified textures and generally faster more lifted rythms. All goes quite well up until CD4, lively spirited performances yet still having the special VPO touch......then we get to 7,8 symphonies. The problem is really last movement of 7th where Rattle looses a coherent line and things become somewhat scattered and confused, a shame since other movements sound fine to me. The 8th has no glaring fault but is only average and doesn't have the sparkle or magic Rattle showed in earlier symphonies......so there you have the weaknesses. I don't think Pengiun is too far off in thier high praise for set overall except as noted in 7th and perhaps 8th

The Abbado 2000 would have to get slight preference overall because he does not falter in 7,8 and is more consistent in his vision and fine performance even if Rattle may be even a touch better in some of the early symphonies.......unfortunately Abbado 2000 not available at yourmusic.com!
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