300 Euro Loudspeakers reccomendations/information wanted.
Jul 4, 2015 at 9:19 PM Post #16 of 49
There's plenty to read about room modes and how to deal with bass in small rooms (when possible)
http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/listening-room-acoustics-1

If you are picking a subwoofer I guess you can't go wrong with the Wharfedale SW-150.
Don't get me wrong, main problem is not the size of the subwoofer, you can always set the subwoofer volume and even EQ as @cel4145 suggested.
EQing can be tricky without a mic. It takes time but can be done.
 
Let's put it this way. If you'll enjoy the extra clarity and refinement all across the spectrum then you can't go wrong with the Zensors. You can always get a sub in the future. There's no need to go for a 400 pounds DALI subwoofer, the SW150 will do the trick for 130.
 
On the other hand, if you want body shaking bass, then stick with the cheaper bookshelf speakers and the subwoofer.
 
If you share a youtube link with music you normally listen to I can try it with the Zensors and share a comment. That said, room placement have an important role on the sound.
 
Headphones are sooo much easy!
 
Quote:
Even an inexpensive sub like the Wharfedale you selected can be used to fill in the low bass and extend the speakers. Since you can set the gain (volume) on the sub wherever you want, you can always turn it down if it's kind of boomy to you.

Now if you want very good bass sound, it's not cheap because a subwoofer is a big driver, in a big enclosure, that has its own amp, and they cost a good deal of money to ship.


+1
 
Jul 4, 2015 at 10:11 PM Post #17 of 49
That being said, with the Dali Zensor 3s, if they are tuned and perform like the Zensor 1s have been measured, they would already by -6db down by 45hz from their peak in the midbass. So already have a problem with smooth, linear bass frequency response because of the speaker design.

I think Zensor 3 are similar in that regard. Placement can make a difference, boosting the bass by 3-6 dB, so in real life they can go just a tad deeper than specs suggest. Rear ported, you know...The perceived roll off can be 'tuned' with placement but still... Won't produce loud 38Hz tones that's for sure!
 
And bass won't be completely linear, although achieving linear bass even with a subwoofer is still an interesting challenge!
 
Speakers, speaker placement, room modes, acoustic treatment, equalizers...
Speakers are much more challenging than headphones for the perfectionist minds!
 
Specially for married guys trying to convince their wives to permit the application of acoustic treatment into the living room!
 
Jul 5, 2015 at 6:59 PM Post #18 of 49
Even an inexpensive sub like the Wharfedale you selected can be used to fill in the low bass and extend the speakers. Since you can set the gain (volume) on the sub wherever you want, you can always turn it down if it's kind of boomy to you.

Now if you want very good bass sound, it's not cheap because a subwoofer is a big driver, in a big enclosure, that has its own amp, and they cost a good deal of money to ship. In the UK, BK is known for making good subs. Here is a 10" that they have: http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/Gemini.htm. SVS Sound is a very popular sub vendor here (like Schiit Audio is to DACs and headphone amps): http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers. They have a vendor in the UK: http://www.karma-av.co.uk/ui/product/Product-List.aspx?BrandID=13&Category=Subwoofers. To find deals on popular store brands, consult AVForums. They are a UK based home audio community and would better know the deals that you might be able to get in the UK.

My attitude towards the whole dilemma kind of hinges on that attitude, see as it is I just want a filled out system, so some relatively neutral (if musical) speakers and a somewhat respectable sub would hit all ranges, and I can go about upgrading from there, safe in the knowledge that I can adjust the frequencies that are harder for bookshelves to stoop to with my subwoofer. Maybe one day when I have 1000+ to spend on some really nice speakers I'll splash out on a sub that will give me almost-perfect bass detailing.
 
Now having previously read around about my potential choices of hardware I was under the impression that the SW150 would be better than the Gemini in my case because the Gemini had a larger capacity to output bass with less detail - justifying it's position as a highly recommended HT Sub, do you know anything about this position? Thank you for the links, bookmarking them now for a look :)
 
Jul 5, 2015 at 7:07 PM Post #19 of 49
  There's plenty to read about room modes and how to deal with bass in small rooms (when possible)
http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/listening-room-acoustics-1

If you are picking a subwoofer I guess you can't go wrong with the Wharfedale SW-150.
Don't get me wrong, main problem is not the size of the subwoofer, you can always set the subwoofer volume and even EQ as @cel4145 suggested.
EQing can be tricky without a mic. It takes time but can be done.
 
Let's put it this way. If you'll enjoy the extra clarity and refinement all across the spectrum then you can't go wrong with the Zensors. You can always get a sub in the future. There's no need to go for a 400 pounds DALI subwoofer, the SW150 will do the trick for 130.
 
On the other hand, if you want body shaking bass, then stick with the cheaper bookshelf speakers and the subwoofer.
 
If you share a youtube link with music you normally listen to I can try it with the Zensors and share a comment. That said, room placement have an important role on the sound.
 
Headphones are sooo much easy!

+1

Ooh, nice article! Thank you.
 
Okay good to know I have even your approval for my sub-using habits :wink:
 
I care about clarity, but having used (I'll say it again) my 7506s, musicality is far more important to me than accurate reproduction once a certain level has been reached. My milestone for this is generally - if I can clearly hear the recording flaw about 3-5 seconds in to System of a Down's track - Ariels where an engineer leans back on his chair and a faint creak can be heard in the recording, and clearly tell what it is, it's accurate enough, and from here I can go about finding the most musical audio source possible -
 
Body shaking bass is, eh. But fun bass is awesome, listen to Wyclef Jean's - Welcome to the Carnival - Year of the Dragon and tell me that deep bass reproduction can't be a crucial part of music :wink:

As regards to your kind offer, thank you very much! That would be very appreciated, right now I don't have a specific song I use for calibration or anything but let's say mmmm, Caring is Creepy - The Shins. The Filter makes it treble heavy with lots of detailing up top but the vocalist comes in at what is a respectable upper mid, and the bass guitar fills in a lot of lowermid/bass. I'd say if you can enjoy all aspects of that song without anyone being overpowered by another, I'd be on the right track :) pun intended.
 
  I think Zensor 3 are similar in that regard. Placement can make a difference, boosting the bass by 3-6 dB, so in real life they can go just a tad deeper than specs suggest. Rear ported, you know...The perceived roll off can be 'tuned' with placement but still... Won't produce loud 38Hz tones that's for sure!
 
And bass won't be completely linear, although achieving linear bass even with a subwoofer is still an interesting challenge!
 
Speakers, speaker placement, room modes, acoustic treatment, equalizers...
Speakers are much more challenging than headphones for the perfectionist minds!
 
Specially for married guys trying to convince their wives to permit the application of acoustic treatment into the living room!

Oh the woes of married men :wink:
 
And doesn't that make speakers all the more entertaining to work with? ;D
 
Jul 5, 2015 at 7:11 PM Post #20 of 49
  There's plenty to read about room modes and how to deal with bass in small rooms (when possible)
http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/listening-room-acoustics-1

If you are picking a subwoofer I guess you can't go wrong with the Wharfedale SW-150.
Don't get me wrong, main problem is not the size of the subwoofer, you can always set the subwoofer volume and even EQ as @cel4145 suggested.
EQing can be tricky without a mic. It takes time but can be done.
 
Let's put it this way. If you'll enjoy the extra clarity and refinement all across the spectrum then you can't go wrong with the Zensors. You can always get a sub in the future. There's no need to go for a 400 pounds DALI subwoofer, the SW150 will do the trick for 130.
 
On the other hand, if you want body shaking bass, then stick with the cheaper bookshelf speakers and the subwoofer.
 
If you share a youtube link with music you normally listen to I can try it with the Zensors and share a comment. That said, room placement have an important role on the sound.
 
Headphones are sooo much easy!

+1


Oh, and if I'm not being an absolute ass, could you just quickly let me know about the strength of Horsemans/Female vocals, and the horns in "Kung Fu Battle Ina Brixton" by Prince Fatty? Because a lot of that is being castrated in my 7506s and it's my least favorite feature of them >.< (Thank you so much I know I'm being awkward here)
 
Jul 5, 2015 at 9:13 PM Post #21 of 49
 
Oh, and if I'm not being an absolute ass, could you just quickly let me know about the strength of Horsemans/Female vocals, and the horns in "Kung Fu Battle Ina Brixton" by Prince Fatty? Because a lot of that is being castrated in my 7506s and it's my least favorite feature of them >.< (Thank you so much I know I'm being awkward here)

 
Tried "Kung Fu Battle Ina Brixton" by Prince Fatty, bass is full, male vocals are clear, horns are present but never harsh.
Female chorus are slightly laid back in this particular recording, but still clear.
 
Setup: Laptop --> Fiio E10 DAC --> Yamaha A-S500 --> Dali Zensor 3
 
(I've recently moved and don't have fast internet connection yet. Took quite a while to load the song.)
 
Also tried some of my brother's music (he normally listen to more bassy genres)
 
Fly O Tech - Molecular sounded very well. Same applies to Pretend by The Brandt Brauer Frick Ensemble, and 'Friday Night' by Yello.
 
Don't have the speakers in a proper room here yet (they are now giving 40-50% of their potential).

Zensor character is pretty evident anyway, bass is full but still tight, vocals are forward and very clear (can be scary clear at first if not used to high fidelity equipment). Treble is present but somehow sweetened, never harsh or sibilant. This fact about the treble makes things easier when it comes to acoustic treatments. For example, now I'm using them in a non-absorbent place (porcelain floor, no carpets, no absorbent panels, you know...), upper-mids / treble are still clear and not harsh at all.
Focals would sound much more aggressive in this place.
 
There's no bass-head meter, so it's really hard for me to push you in either direction. Listening at the Zensors I don't feel like something is missing at all, but that's just my impression, it might or not correlate with yours.
 
There's always a trade off, always... Despite budget.

Pick 1500 come here and we will be discussing whether you should pick 1000 bookshelf speakers and 500 amp, or 600 speakers, 200 DAC, 200 subwoofer and 500 amp, and so on...
You get the idea.
 
I think you can't go wrong with either setup, be sure of spending enough time setting up everything once you've got your new speaker rig. Read about positioning, get stands if you can, play with positioning, speaker separation from the walls and separation from each other have a big impact on sound. Toe in can be important as well. It might take hours, or even days going back and forth, comparing. Adding a small carpet on the floor between the speakers and the main listening position, there's plenty to do to improve sound quality beyond the speakers and amplifier.
 
In this game lazy people lose.
 
Jul 5, 2015 at 10:48 PM Post #22 of 49
Now having previously read around about my potential choices of hardware I was under the impression that the SW150 would be better than the Gemini in my case because the Gemini had a larger capacity to output bass with less detail - justifying it's position as a highly recommended HT Sub, do you know anything about this position? Thank you for the links, bookmarking them now for a look :)


I'm not quite sure what you mean, and the distinction of an "HT Sub" is not very useful. A good sounding sub is a good sub. A bad sounding sub is a bad sub. Only people that don't understand subwoofers try to talk about so-called music subs vs HT subs. The only useful distinction one can make is that for HT, generally good to get a sub with 20hz bass extension for movies. Whereas with music, one could get by with one with weaker bass extension down only into the 30hz range because there's not content below that very often. Unless someone has directly compared the SW150 with the Gemini and/or has seen independent measurements, I find that unlikely to be true.

So it sounds like more nonsense like the myth that smaller driver subs are tighter/faster than bigger driver subs.
 
Jul 6, 2015 at 4:48 AM Post #23 of 49
   
Tried "Kung Fu Battle Ina Brixton" by Prince Fatty, bass is full, male vocals are clear, horns are present but never harsh.
Female chorus are slightly laid back in this particular recording, but still clear.
 
Setup: Laptop --> Fiio E10 DAC --> Yamaha A-S500 --> Dali Zensor 3
 
(I've recently moved and don't have fast internet connection yet. Took quite a while to load the song.)
 
Also tried some of my brother's music (he normally listen to more bassy genres)
 
Fly O Tech - Molecular sounded very well. Same applies to Pretend by The Brandt Brauer Frick Ensemble, and 'Friday Night' by Yello.
 
Don't have the speakers in a proper room here yet (they are now giving 40-50% of their potential).

Zensor character is pretty evident anyway, bass is full but still tight, vocals are forward and very clear (can be scary clear at first if not used to high fidelity equipment). Treble is present but somehow sweetened, never harsh or sibilant. This fact about the treble makes things easier when it comes to acoustic treatments. For example, now I'm using them in a non-absorbent place (porcelain floor, no carpets, no absorbent panels, you know...), upper-mids / treble are still clear and not harsh at all.
Focals would sound much more aggressive in this place.
 
There's no bass-head meter, so it's really hard for me to push you in either direction. Listening at the Zensors I don't feel like something is missing at all, but that's just my impression, it might or not correlate with yours.
 
There's always a trade off, always... Despite budget.

Pick 1500 come here and we will be discussing whether you should pick 1000 bookshelf speakers and 500 amp, or 600 speakers, 200 DAC, 200 subwoofer and 500 amp, and so on...
You get the idea.
 
I think you can't go wrong with either setup, be sure of spending enough time setting up everything once you've got your new speaker rig. Read about positioning, get stands if you can, play with positioning, speaker separation from the walls and separation from each other have a big impact on sound. Toe in can be important as well. It might take hours, or even days going back and forth, comparing. Adding a small carpet on the floor between the speakers and the main listening position, there's plenty to do to improve sound quality beyond the speakers and amplifier.
 
In this game lazy people lose.

Hm, you do make a convincing sale for a pair of Zensor 3s I'll give you that much! I certainly wouldn't define myself as being a basshead, but I'm mostly certain that the purchase of an alright sub would tick a box I'd like ticked that should qwell any desire for more/better bass in the near future, where a pair of bookshelves might not. But at that I appreciate your standpoint here, I'll certainly think it over, spending more on a pair of bookshelves might really pay off. 
 
Fortunate that I'm not lazy eh? :wink: I think I have some reading to do before the next trip to IKEA.
 
I'm not quite sure what you mean, and the distinction of an "HT Sub" is not very useful. A good sounding sub is a good sub. A bad sounding sub is a bad sub. Only people that don't understand subwoofers try to talk about so-called music subs vs HT subs. The only useful distinction one can make is that for HT, generally good to get a sub with 20hz bass extension for movies. Whereas with music, one could get by with one with weaker bass extension down only into the 30hz range because there's not content below that very often. Unless someone has directly compared the SW150 with the Gemini and/or has seen independent measurements, I find that unlikely to be true.

So it sounds like more nonsense like the myth that smaller driver subs are tighter/faster than bigger driver subs.

As somebody who's only ever owned or tried one dedicated sub, I'm mostly going off what I remember from this thread and with little comparison involved it could be utter nonsense, but I think it went something along the line of - a few HT enthusiasts recommending the Gemini over the SW150, complaining that the SW150 wasn't capable of delivering as much of a punch during wave crashes/explosions, whereas the Gemini was capable of delivering a much stronger impact.
 
When I read up on this comparison little apples to apples was done - but I saw some users complaining of the Gemini's slightly lack-luster presentation, and I have one professional review in mind I shall endevour to find for you that complained about the lack of punch delivered by the SW150, but argued for it's position claiming what it lacked for in quantity it made up for in musicality and control.
 
I don't blame you for being apprehensive about this statement, as it's neither specific nor cited, merely what I can recall from a few forum posts and 1 professional review (that of the SW150). I'm at work now but I'll see if I can find these complaints tonight!
 
Jul 6, 2015 at 11:05 AM Post #24 of 49
As somebody who's only ever owned or tried one dedicated sub, I'm mostly going off what I remember from this thread and with little comparison involved it could be utter nonsense, but I think it went something along the line of - a few HT enthusiasts recommending the Gemini over the SW150, complaining that the SW150 wasn't capable of delivering as much of a punch during wave crashes/explosions, whereas the Gemini was capable of delivering a much stronger impact.


That seems likely.

When I read up on this comparison little apples to apples was done - but I saw some users complaining of the Gemini's slightly lack-luster presentation, and I have one professional review in mind I shall endevour to find for you that complained about the lack of punch delivered by the SW150, but argued for it's position claiming what it lacked for in quantity it made up for in musicality and control..


See this post on AVForums:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/wharfedale-diamond-sw150-or-gemini.979313/#post-9311400

Subwoofers from traditional speaker companies that are sold in brick and mortar stores have a lot of markup so that they can pay for a middle man in comparison to the well known Internet direct subwoofer vendors. So typically, unless you are getting them for a significant amount off, they are not a very good price/performance value compared to something like BK or SVS. Also, the SW-150 is rated by Wharfedale as 35Hz to 110Hz. Given that the SW-300 is rated 25Hz to 90Hz, but was measured to have a -3db of 36hz and -6db of 33hz, good guess the SW-150 might be more of a 40 or 45 hz usable low end sub. So my guess would be that the SW-150 is probably appropriately priced at £139.95 on Amazon UK in terms of price/performance. I would not expect it to be the same class of sub as the BK.
 
Jul 7, 2015 at 4:02 AM Post #25 of 49
That seems likely.
See this post on AVForums:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/wharfedale-diamond-sw150-or-gemini.979313/#post-9311400

Subwoofers from traditional speaker companies that are sold in brick and mortar stores have a lot of markup so that they can pay for a middle man in comparison to the well known Internet direct subwoofer vendors. So typically, unless you are getting them for a significant amount off, they are not a very good price/performance value compared to something like BK or SVS. Also, the SW-150 is rated by Wharfedale as 35Hz to 110Hz. Given that the SW-300 is rated 25Hz to 90Hz, but was measured to have a -3db of 36hz and -6db of 33hz, good guess the SW-150 might be more of a 40 or 45 hz usable low end sub. So my guess would be that the SW-150 is probably appropriately priced at £139.95 on Amazon UK in terms of price/performance. I would not expect it to be the same class of sub as the BK.

Okay well it's looking like I've cleared up some more money to spend on my audio setup (head-fi is a cruel temptress indeed..). So could I ask if you have any basic reccommendations for a BK or SVS sub within the 139-159 price range (I'm spreading out the money I'm saving on other stuff pretty equally, I've got lots of stuff I need to buy so no huge boost but it's something right?)?
 
Not to be totally reliant and ask you to do my shopping for me, but if you know of anything highly trumpeted or something to stay away from, every little helps! Thanks again for your help over the course of this thread, I'm thinking it won't be too long now before I have some banging audio B| You're a hero mate (and everyone else here)
 
Jul 7, 2015 at 12:10 PM Post #26 of 49
Okay well it's looking like I've cleared up some more money to spend on my audio setup (head-fi is a cruel temptress indeed..). So could I ask if you have any basic reccommendations for a BK or SVS sub within the 139-159 price range (I'm spreading out the money I'm saving on other stuff pretty equally, I've got lots of stuff I need to buy so no huge boost but it's something right?)?


If that is your budget, I think they are a good bit out of your price range.
 
Jul 7, 2015 at 11:57 PM Post #27 of 49
  Okay well it's looking like I've cleared up some more money to spend on my audio setup (head-fi is a cruel temptress indeed..). So could I ask if you have any basic recommendations for a BK or SVS sub within the 139-159 price range (I'm spreading out the money I'm saving on other stuff pretty equally, I've got lots of stuff I need to buy so no huge boost but it's something right?)?

 
Like I said previously, you can always just spend most of your money now as much as possible on better speakers, then save up for the sub later on. Chances are that if you got a speaker that can reach down to 45hz (or heck, even just 50hz) before hitting its -3dB point you can live with it for a while barring a sub that can really rock the walls off your house.
 
That said don't be wary of the SW150 - the only reason people think it's "weak" or "music oriented" is that it isn't made to have monster bass with high excursion surrounds. Every design has a compromise, and at that price point Wharfedale chose control and low distortion. I mean, just compare it to how loose the bass tends to be on some HTiB subs, even the 8in ones from JBL, and yet when you really boost the bass the SW150 still has more control than those 8in HTiB subs (which some take to mean instead as "awesome Michael Bay explosion bass rocking my house and pissing off my neighbors y'all!!!").
 
 
Jul 8, 2015 at 12:44 AM Post #28 of 49
I mean, just compare it to how loose the bass tends to be on some HTiB subs, even the 8in ones from JBL, and yet when you really boost the bass the SW150 still has more control than those 8in HTiB subs (which some take to mean instead as "awesome Michael Bay explosion bass rocking my house and pissing off my neighbors y'all!!!").


I hope you meant 12 or 15". :)
 
Jul 8, 2015 at 2:26 AM Post #29 of 49
I hope you meant 12 or 15".
smily_headphones1.gif

 
Nope I'm referring to the cheap 8inchers. Normally we can assume that size to produce "tight" bass, given that for the same price you can design a driver with less distortion (since the cone isn't too wide), but in the HTiB example, I suspect manufacturers don't invest much in driver design thinking that this subwoofers up to this size will be for HTiBs for people who are way more conscious about size and loud rumbling movie SFX bass than linear response. As a result they put cheap drivers in enclosures designed to squeeze out as much low bass as possible with more tolerance to distortion than usual (think of the same philosophy behind the Audioengine A2's bass). The better 8in cubes tend to be too expensive for their performance or just outright more expensive than 10in options (of course, if I can snag one on the cheap, then that deals with one problem).
 
That said, if I was going to use it in a small living room, I'd use a more cube-shaped, front-firing 8in that I can fit on a huge platform for electronics and other stuff into the wall rather than save some space on the floor (and nothing above it) for a 10in or larger sub. In the end it goes back to size considerations and how it fits into the room.
 
 
 
Jul 8, 2015 at 4:16 AM Post #30 of 49
   
Like I said previously, you can always just spend most of your money now as much as possible on better speakers, then save up for the sub later on. Chances are that if you got a speaker that can reach down to 45hz (or heck, even just 50hz) before hitting its -3dB point you can live with it for a while barring a sub that can really rock the walls off your house.
 
That said don't be wary of the SW150 - the only reason people think it's "weak" or "music oriented" is that it isn't made to have monster bass with high excursion surrounds. Every design has a compromise, and at that price point Wharfedale chose control and low distortion. I mean, just compare it to how loose the bass tends to be on some HTiB subs, even the 8in ones from JBL, and yet when you really boost the bass the SW150 still has more control than those 8in HTiB subs (which some take to mean instead as "awesome Michael Bay explosion bass rocking my house and pissing off my neighbors y'all!!!").
 

What do you think about the suggestion of buying a pair of new Zensor 1s? (I ask about these particularly because while sound is of course the first and foremost concern here... my are they pretty..) If I really took the plunge I could afford a pair of Zensor 1s new, without a sub. But the way I see it it would be better to start with a sub as it might be a while until I can get another upgrade, and bookshelf speakers are simply incapable of producing low bass, I could spend 1000 euro on a pair of speakers and they wouldn't have the performance of a cheap sub. I think a cheap sub might really fill out my range early on - and when I next have room for an upgrade or even the next two or three times it'd go straight into new speakers, and I could use the replaced speakers (probably the Diamond 9.1s at first as ebay's not being kind to me) as a bedroom solution or etc.
 
So long as I'm not making a fundamentally stupid mistake here, I think I have my mind pretty well made up. Of course having said that anybody who thinks they can change my opinion is more than welcome to try.
 
If that is your budget, I think they are a good bit out of your price range.

That's in pounds BTW, which is considerably more in euro and dollar, i.e. 139.95 pounds is the cost of the SW150 ( but I was expecting an answer like this much sooner so we did well to get this far :wink: )
 

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