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OFC vs. OCC wire - Page 3

post #31 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

IMO belief takes over when you don't accurately compare SQ. Some things that affect perception:

  • Echoic Memory
  • Equal Loudness Contour -- Fletcher Munson
  • Expectation Bias

logical fallacy : circular (circulus in demonstrando) or begging the question (petitio principii)

 

ie. it must sound better or people wouldn't spend so much money on it

 

there is no direct correlation between cost and sound quality

 

special pleading or argument from ignorance : sound is measurable as a wave form we use measurements of the sounds heaphones make but not with cables why?

 

what your hear may be a difference in gain combined with an exepectation bias, but saying it can't be measured but you can hear is ignorance

 

logic and science don't allow for these kind of claims 

post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by iankim View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWolf View Post
 

Sorry, but you people are wrong. Different types of cables can sound different. You may not be able to measure this, but you can hear it.

Agree. I have heared the difference. And that is probably also the reason why others also pay that much to buy those good expensive cables, otherwise a decent looking, robust, ergonomic cheaper one should be fine already.


 if you look at the scientific theory, empty claims and vague hypothesis aren't even close to drawing a conclusion.

you observed a difference in sound using different cables and what I assume to be an uncontrolled sighted test, that's step 1. now you're supposed to guess something, the more precise and clear the guess, the more precise and clear the experiment and the better the conclusion.

if the hypothesis is something useless like "can different cables sound different", I can develop a test where I use a cable, and then I use another cable with a plug where ground and left are soldered together. bingo! I've proved that 2 cables could sound different. it was easy, but the conclusion is really of no value to anybody. we've learned nothing and proved close to nothing.

 

that's why a more specific guess needs to form the hypothesis. if I interpret your post I would formulate something like:

people heard a difference that's why they buy expensive cables. 

I've heard differences in sound caused by cables, but I buy cheap cables. I just disproved the hypothesis, so we need to come up with a new one that factors my situation. people heard a difference and that's why some of them will pay a lot of money for expensive cables. still way too vague but we're going somewhere with proper reasoning method as we now factor my purchasing habits. that's pretty much how it goes, we make a guess, test for it and try to disprove the guess, if we can the guess is wrong and we need to adapt and make a new guess. and we go on and on until the real world seems to agree with our model and we know what we wished to know.

right now even the second hypothesis is flawed, here is why:

- did people hear a difference or did they believe they heard a difference? we haven't demonstrated that yet, and neither you or JWolf cared to talk about how you made your observation of hearing a difference. so the axiom people heard a difference in cables, well it's not an axiom at all. it needs to be properly tested first.

- does a lot of money translate in more change in sound? or in better sound? I don't think that has been demonstrated and if it has been, I'd like to see the work done to reach the conclusion. the idea of throwing money at cable sellers without a clue as to why we do it, it doesn't feel like a very rational behaviour. maybe there is something to gain from some expensive cables, but don't you wish to know why before spending money?

 

 

instead, asking more specific questions, experimenting with better controls, those are the ways to find out if something is false or not. here is an hypothesis based on Brooko's anecdote:

if a cable has higher impedance, it might lead to an audible difference. 

loudness is directly proportional to the voltage amplitude of the signal. and voltage will change if the impedance in the circuit changes. it's a consensus based on ohm's law so we don't really have to bother proving that part.

therefore change in the cable's impedance will alter the loudness of the music. this is a fact.  so what's left to determine is to find out if the variations in impedance usually found in cables can make a loudness change big enough to be above the threshold of audibility.

here are some stuff I tried with 2 IEMs where such influence would be great(again it's something I could anticipate because I have ohm's law and I had previously measured the impedance curve of those IEMs(low and chaotic):

 

and another IEM

ok so because I'm not really able to get 2000 people to blind test my cables, I take a roundabout way to try and demonstrate something. here I show that in some cases with some IEMs, an increase in impedance from the cable or anything between the amp and the IEM can result in those massive variations of frequency response.

now this in itself brings up 2 questions:

-can a human notice 94.9-86.7= 8.2db variation at 100hz? that one should be a consensus, right? I'd expect anybody to be able to notice that in a blind test.

-can 2 cables have as much as 8ohm difference? of course they can, an er4s has one 75ohm resistor on each channel on purpose. it's enough to demonstrate that such cables exist.

so I believe I can have confidence in the fact that cables of different impedance can under proper conditions, result in audible difference.

here I have made a complete reasoning. I can now use that information to make a new hypothesis and test new things to reach new conclusions and know more about cables, but I started with an observation, I made a guess, tested that guess not very well but IMO well enough to answer my question using an objective test where only 1 variable was changing. and then I reached a conclusion. I didn't just feel something, and decided to comes claims random stuff on the web without a shred of evidence. and that's all the difference. conclusions come at the end of a reasoning after we have obtained enough evidence for a good level of confidence. a random dude thinking he's right and claiming he is, that's not a reasoning and it means nothing.

 

now about the topic, OFC vs OCC, has anybody tested the same cable (same length, insulation, diameter...) with only that variable being different? has anything been measured to be of significance for audibility? or was a blind test organized with those cables? those are the kind of questions one would need to answer before making "courageous" empty claims on the subject.

I have 30meters of very basic dead cheap cable that still measures a little under 1ohm, so even if the same thing in OCC resulted in the impedance going down to 0.1ohm(and it wouldn't of course), it would still be a very small variation for typical headphone cable length, and most of the time with most IEMs the specific stuff I tested about impedance would not be audible.

so we'd need to actually do a blind test with the 2 kinds of cable, or change our hypothesis to explore other possible causes of audible change, to try and narrow down the possibilities and causes.

doing things right isn't easy, and it's not very fun either, but we avoid all the typical nonsense and empty claims from people who don't know anything and still want to pretend like they do.

 

PS: some may notice that for one of the IEMs, higher impedance cable actually makes the IEM brighter. for that IEM using a silver cable so stupidly famous for giving lower impedance, more "hair" and not rolling off the trebles as much as copper, would in this specific case make the IEM measurably warmer than basic copper of the same gauge. it's another case of people drawing false conclusion after some anecdotal observation without reasoning or testing. and each time, there is one variable that we cannot dismiss, the human. I don't beleive I need to prove that a human can be fooled and can fool himself, so why do people dismiss that possibility and rush to make empty claims all year long? IMO it's fine to simply say "I don't know" from time to time.

post #33 of 52
The question is, if OFC & OCC cost exactly the same and you had to choose one to make your cable, which would you go with?
post #34 of 52

OFC & OCC would be so far down the list of cable properties that we would never get to it.

 

The first property would be end-to-end resistance the rest would be about mechanical construction.

post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arty McGhee View Post
 

logical fallacy : circular (circulus in demonstrando) or begging the question (petitio principii)

 

ie. it must sound better or people wouldn't spend so much money on it

 

there is no direct correlation between cost and sound quality

 

special pleading or argument from ignorance : sound is measurable as a wave form we use measurements of the sounds heaphones make but not with cables why?

 

what your hear may be a difference in gain combined with an exepectation bias, but saying it can't be measured but you can hear is ignorance

 

logic and science don't allow for these kind of claims 

David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) said that his neighbor's dog told him to do it. He finally came clean and said that he made it all up, I was so disappointed to find out he was talking smack about the dog. What's next he's going to sell to sell premium cables to unsuspecting audiophiles and tell them that the dog recommended them?

post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWolf View Post

The question is, if OFC & OCC cost exactly the same and you had to choose one to make your cable, which would you go with?


I'm with Speedskater on this. at this point I haven't seen measurable difference or a proper audibility test, so I don't have any reason to suspect it's something that matters for the overall RLC properties of the wire. of course if I see evidence that it is a significant variable, then I will revise my opinion and start to care. but lets just say I'm not holding my breath.

post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by castleofargh View Post
 


I'm with Speedskater on this. at this point I haven't seen measurable difference or a proper audibility test, so I don't have any reason to suspect it's something that matters for the overall RLC properties of the wire. of course if I see evidence that it is a significant variable, then I will revise my opinion and start to care. but lets just say I'm not holding my breath.

Perhaps we should consult with the dog.

post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) said that his neighbor's dog told him to do it. He finally came clean and said that he made it all up, I was so disappointed to find out he was talking smack about the dog. What's next he's going to sell to sell premium cables to unsuspecting audiophiles and tell them that the dog recommended them?

i had a pot-bellied pig for 17 years

he used to talk all kinds of smack

i just didn't listen.....

post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arty McGhee View Post
 

i had a pot-bellied pig for 17 years

he used to talk all kinds of smack

i just didn't listen.....


I would've told him to shut up or he'll find out where bacon comes from. Since you didn't listen, we'll never know his opinion regarding OFC vs. OCC wire.

post #40 of 52
Thread Starter 
Lol I'm surprised this thread is still going. I've moved deep into electronic design so wire purity is the least of my concerns nowadays. I will say that I have personally heard a difference between the stock hd800 cable and one that I made but the results weren't conclusive and other factors could have been at play.
Wire resistance and capacitance could cause issues but I doubt they would ever be large enough to hear, however it's foolish to definitely claim either side is correct given the amount of testimony.
In either case it must be nice to have the luxury of worrying about wire purity. I'll probably build two identical amplifiers with different wire make ups somewhere down the line and do a blind test to see what's up.
post #41 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by coinmaster View Post

Lol I'm surprised this thread is still going. I've moved deep into electronic design so wire purity is the least of my concerns nowadays. I will say that I have personally heard a difference between the stock hd800 cable and one that I made but the results weren't conclusive and other factors could have been at play.
Wire resistance and capacitance could cause issues but I doubt they would ever be large enough to hear, however it's foolish to definitely claim either side is correct given the amount of testimony.
In either case it must be nice to have the luxury of worrying about wire purity. I'll probably build two identical amplifiers with different wire make ups somewhere down the line and do a blind test to see what's up.


Capacitance is not about the wire, it's about the dielectric which in this case is the insulation. I have yet to see anyone define what differences of resistance in practical audio cables, headphone cables, etc. that can affect SQ. Let's leave 100 foot headphone cables or defective wires out of this.

post #42 of 52

lets go back to the original question

 

as i understand this process, you bring copper wire down to a very low temperature

 

and it changes the properties of copper to produce a single crystal the length of this wire

 

does this result in a better sound quality and if it cost the same as ofc copper

 

would it be worth using?

 

(putting aside dielectrics and talking pigs)

post #43 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arty McGhee View Post
 

lets go back to the original question

 

as i understand this process, you bring copper wire down to a very low temperature

 

and it changes the properties of copper to produce a single crystal the length of this wire

 

does this result in a better sound quality and if it cost the same as ofc copper

 

would it be worth using?

 

(putting aside dielectrics and talking pigs)


No it doesn't do anything for SQ. Decent wire has a very low resistance, so low that any small difference has no audible effect. There is no other electrical property other than magic that can affect SQ.

post #44 of 52
Thread Starter 
Not sure why this conversation is still going, only a fool speaks in absolutes but there is nothing known and measured that can affect the SQ of a cable.
That doesn't mean there is no change in SQ it just means a long internet discussion about it is pointless. If you are enjoying your silver cables then more power to you.
post #45 of 52

A super conductor expert reports that cryo doesn't do much for copper wire and the small changes disappear after you flex the wire a few times.

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