How do I get round a hi-fi amplifier's "poor" headphones output?
Feb 6, 2015 at 3:57 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 111

thelonious58

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Newbie here.
I've read in several threads that most stereo amplifiers have a cheap and therefore not so great headphones output, and unfortunately my CD player doesn't have a headphones output (which probably might have been superior?)
Although the sound from my Cambridge Audio Azur 640A (v1) stereo amplifier, listening to CDs from my CA Azur 640C (v1) CD player has enough power and sounds decent enough, I can't find out anywhere whether it's just a bog standard headphones output socket - I do know that on its successor, the v2, it is a top quality one, so I'm assuming they upgraded it from that on the v1.
My question; is it possible to listen on this amp by connecting it to another output on the amp, eg tape or aux outputs? I was thinking of some lead such as a 2 x RCA with a female headphone socket, but I wanted to ask the experts first.
I use Sennheiser HD598 and Sony MA900, both of which have low impedance and high sensitivity
Any ideas?
 
Feb 7, 2015 at 6:21 AM Post #3 of 111
NO, those RCA outputs are at linelevel for impedance above 10k Ohms, so don't have power to drive headphones.

If you hear hiss from 640A means output is for higher impedance headphones.
Buy an external headamp that can drive low impedance headphones would be an upgrade in SQ.
 
Feb 12, 2015 at 12:43 AM Post #7 of 111
  Newbie here.
I've read in several threads that most stereo amplifiers have a cheap and therefore not so great headphones output, and unfortunately my CD player doesn't have a headphones output (which probably might have been superior?)
Although the sound from my Cambridge Audio Azur 640A (v1) stereo amplifier, listening to CDs from my CA Azur 640C (v1) CD player has enough power and sounds decent enough, I can't find out anywhere whether it's just a bog standard headphones output socket - I do know that on its successor, the v2, it is a top quality one, so I'm assuming they upgraded it from that on the v1.
My question; is it possible to listen on this amp by connecting it to another output on the amp, eg tape or aux outputs? I was thinking of some lead such as a 2 x RCA with a female headphone socket, but I wanted to ask the experts first.
I use Sennheiser HD598 and Sony MA900, both of which have low impedance and high sensitivity
Any ideas?

 
You can buy a cheap headphone amp and run it from a dac or from the tape loop on the amp. Can get a decent one for about £100, the schiit magni uber is supposed to be good not heard it myself.
 
Feb 12, 2015 at 8:25 AM Post #8 of 111
Yeah, I agree with just getting a small headphone amp. Either that or just get an RCA-to-mini jack cable and run the RCA outputs of your cd player into a small little portable amp like a Fiio E11. I do this all the time for cable tv listening. I run the RCA outputs on the cable box to a digizoid ZOfs (www.digizoid.com) portable amp. Sounds amazing. I also have the Fiio E11 and it's a very solid performer. If you want to spend even less money, get the E6. 
 
Feb 12, 2015 at 9:12 AM Post #9 of 111
I know what you mean thelonious58 :) I use the headphone out on my integrated amp and have read similar such claims that a dedicated amp will be better. The thing is, i'm not dissatisfied with what I'm hearing - are you? I am curious as to just how much better the sound might be, but not curious enough to spend £100.

This probably means I can't claim to be a head-fier :grin:!
 
Feb 12, 2015 at 5:32 PM Post #10 of 111
I know what you mean thelonious58
smily_headphones1.gif
I use the headphone out on my integrated amp and have read similar such claims that a dedicated amp will be better. The thing is, i'm not dissatisfied with what I'm hearing - are you? I am curious as to just how much better the sound might be, but not curious enough to spend £100.

This probably means I can't claim to be a head-fier :grin:!

 
The headphone amp on you integrated will probably be mediocre/bad for headphones compared to a proper amp / dac... Its either stepped down from the main amp or a cheap op amp, it probably has a high resistance so is not good compared to a headphone amp with < 5ohm impedance. A headphone amp will probably give you a lot better sound quality but its your money.
 
Feb 12, 2015 at 8:05 PM Post #12 of 111
I know what you mean thelonious58
smily_headphones1.gif
I use the headphone out on my integrated amp and have read similar such claims that a dedicated amp will be better. The thing is, i'm not dissatisfied with what I'm hearing - are you? I am curious as to just how much better the sound might be, but not curious enough to spend £100.

This probably means I can't claim to be a head-fier :grin:!

 
 
 
The headphone amp on you integrated will probably be mediocre/bad for headphones compared to a proper amp / dac... Its either stepped down from the main amp or a cheap op amp, it probably has a high resistance so is not good compared to a headphone amp with < 5ohm impedance. A headphone amp will probably give you a lot better sound quality but its your money.

 
Here are two posts virtually at odds, and I must say the second manages to encapulate all the myths about integrated amps and headphones that were ever perpetrated on Head-fi (and that's quite a lot). First, yes, the HP out will either take a line from the main amp or use an op amp circuit, but why do you suppose the latter will be cheap and nasty? The Cambridge 640 is a quality amp; any op amp circuit it uses will likely be as good or better than anything you buy singly for $200-$300. It's not that difficult or expensive to design a decent sounding op amp circuit. Secondly, why assume an amp that takes a line from the main amp will sound bad? I've been using such amps since I started in headphones and the results can often be stunning. Yes, there can be a slight problem with low impedance headphones in terms of slightly loose bass, but it's mild and often not even apparent.
 
Smithington is to be commended for not instantly bowing to Head-Fi hype. If you're not dissatisfied, why let others make you so? I could almost guarantee this independently thinking individual that he could go and spent $300 on a separate HP amp and hear little to no difference, or a difference he may not even like. I've had good HP amps (up to LD MkV) as well as integrated amps and never heard a difference worth anything like the expense or inconvenience (integrated are so convenient in terms of remote control, tone controls etc). I'm always mystified why people run screaming from their amps and receivers without even trying them, or trying them and then posting here with something like, "I've got an integrated that sounds good with my headphones but wouldn't I be getting much better results with a separate HP amp?" Answer: probably not.
 
Can't swear to it but I seem to recall the pricier Cambridge amps all use a separate HP circuit, which is actually quite unusual. I'd advise the OP to try to do a comparison with a separate amp, but on no account believe the hype that the separate amp MUST sound better: to the unbiased ear it probably won't.
 
Feb 12, 2015 at 8:22 PM Post #13 of 111
   
 
 
Here are two posts virtually at odds, and I must say the second manages to encapulate all the myths about integrated amps and headphones that were ever perpetrated on Head-fi (and that's quite a lot). First, yes, the HP out will either take a line from the main amp or use an op amp circuit, but why do you suppose the latter will be cheap and nasty? The Cambridge 640 is a quality amp; any op amp circuit it uses will likely be as good or better than anything you buy singly for $200-$300. It's not that difficult or expensive to design a decent sounding op amp circuit. Secondly, why assume an amp that takes a line from the main amp will sound bad? I've been using such amps since I started in headphones and the results can often be stunning. Yes, there can be a slight problem with low impedance headphones in terms of slightly loose bass, but it's mild and often not even apparent.
 
Smithington is to be commended for not instantly bowing to Head-Fi hype. If you're not dissatisfied, why let others make you so? I could almost guarantee this independently thinking individual that he could go and spent $300 on a separate HP amp and hear little to no difference, or a difference he may not even like. I've had good HP amps (up to LD MkV) as well as integrated amps and never heard a difference worth anything like the expense or inconvenience (integrated are so convenient in terms of remote control, tone controls etc). I'm always mystified why people run screaming from their amps and receivers without even trying them, or trying them and then posting here with something like, "I've got an integrated that sounds good with my headphones but wouldn't I be getting much better results with a separate HP amp?" Answer: probably not.
 
Can't swear to it but I seem to recall the pricier Cambridge amps all use a separate HP circuit, which is actually quite unusual. I'd advise the OP to try to do a comparison with a separate amp, but on no account believe the hype that the separate amp MUST sound better: to the unbiased ear it probably won't.

 
Well whatever but basically a dedicated amp / dac sounds better than the headphone jack on a intergated amp 90% of the time (unless the amp is known to have a very good headphone out which is not many), the op amp might be decent or the step down from amp might be decent as well,  the impedance will probably be high and a dedicated headphone amp will sound better, they are not "myths" from head-fi, they are correct facts... The headphone output on a cheap / mid range amp will usually be a cheap afterthought. Also sounds like you have only used cheapo headphone amps which will not be a massive improvement over a good headphone jack on a speaker amp, good headphone amp / dac = significantly and very obvious improvement in sound quality. Anyway I don't want to argue about it, do what you want its your money if you are happy with the integrated then keep it, if you want improved sound quality get a dedicated headphone amp / dac.
 
Feb 13, 2015 at 12:00 AM Post #15 of 111
 
Well whatever but basically a dedicated amp / dac sounds better than the headphone jack on a intergated amp 90% of the time (unless the amp is known to have a very good headphone out which is not many), the op amp might be decent or the step down from amp might be decent as well,  the impedance will probably be high and a dedicated headphone amp will sound better, they are not "myths" from head-fi, they are correct facts... The headphone output on a cheap / mid range amp will usually be a cheap afterthought. Also sounds like you have only used cheapo headphone amps which will not be a massive improvement over a good headphone jack on a speaker amp, good headphone amp / dac = significantly and very obvious improvement in sound quality. Anyway I don't want to argue about it, do what you want its your money if you are happy with the integrated then keep it, if you want improved sound quality get a dedicated headphone amp / dac.

 
 
Well, you've just managed to re-state all the myths without offering a shred of evidence. In fact this subject has been thoroughly discussed in previous threads and the following has emerged:
 
1. Almost all HP outs on integrateds and receivers are taken from the speaker outs through resistors. This has been confirmed by emails to manufacturers by someone with a lot more patience than I. (Cambridge are in fact one of the few exceptions, except for their base model). This idea that manufacturers invariably fit a 5c op amp to the headphone socket is demonstrably wrong. The sound you get from the HP socket of an integrated or receiver is the same as that going to the speakers, the only complicating factor being a possible impedance mismatch. This is not a factor with 250ohm headphones and up, and probably not with most other headphones as well, with the possible exception of the very low impedance planars.
 
You say, "Also sounds like you have only used cheapo headphone amps" when I clearly stated I've used amps up to the Little Dot MkV. There is no appreciable difference. If you read other threads you will quickly find evidence that others have been unable to hear a difference either. I've been arguing this point since I joined Head-Fi in 2001 and the argument goes on. I cannot deny the evidence of my ears. There are many, many excellent sounding integrateds and receivers that people simply overlook because they've bought this message that you must have a dedicated amp. I have only one piece of advice to anyone on the fence on this issue: suck it and see.
 

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