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iFi iDSD Micro DSD512 / PCM768 DAC and Headphone Amp. Impressions, Reviews and Comments. - Page 29

post #421 of 972

“Pop” goes DSD? Why does this happen?

 

Hi all, this has been copied in from here:

http://ifi-audio.com/audio_blog/pop-goes-dsd-why-does-this-happen/

 

But as it is so brief, we have put the whole piece in here.

 


 

Question: Some iFi and non-iFi customers have asked – Why during DSD playback is there a “pop” sound?

 

Short (layman) answer: This is an inherent characteristic of DSD that is unavoidable.

Long (technical) answer: Please see below.

 

1. PCM can produce a true zero (silence) output in an instant. When the data stream stops, the DAC is then reset to “zero” for PCM.

2. As DSD only records the difference in level between each sample and during track changes (or a switch from PCM to DSD), the Player no longer sends DoP markers.

3. As a result, the DSD’s output levels (via DSD-DoP) of the DAC output can ‘stick’ at any possible level (almost anything but rarely zero) between the two extremes.

4. When the next song commences, the DAC suddenly receives a new DAC value (usually this new value is zero), which has no relevance to the previous sample- hence the ‘pop’.

5. The only way to reduce this ‘pop’ is to run a small period of silence during these changes. In other words, the playback software must handle this correctly and play a short silence before it stops sending DoP markers.

6. For example: JRiver v19 or higher has this under WASAPI hence no ‘pop’ between changes.
imagecheck001

7. Another example: there is no pop when using DSD (native) under JRiver.

8. Onkyo HF Player doesn’t have this feature and hence the pop sound.

We hope you found this useful.

post #422 of 972
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iFi audio View Post
 

“Pop” goes DSD? Why does this happen?

 

Hi all, this has been copied in from here:

http://ifi-audio.com/audio_blog/pop-goes-dsd-why-does-this-happen/

 

But as it is so brief, we have put the whole piece in here.

 


 

Question: Some iFi and non-iFi customers have asked – Why during DSD playback is there a “pop” sound?

 

Short (layman) answer: This is an inherent characteristic of DSD that is unavoidable.

Long (technical) answer: Please see below.

 

1. PCM can produce a true zero (silence) output in an instant. When the data stream stops, the DAC is then reset to “zero” for PCM.

2. As DSD only records the difference in level between each sample and during track changes (or a switch from PCM to DSD), the Player no longer sends DoP markers.

3. As a result, the DSD’s output levels (via DSD-DoP) of the DAC output can ‘stick’ at any possible level (almost anything but rarely zero) between the two extremes.

4. When the next song commences, the DAC suddenly receives a new DAC value (usually this new value is zero), which has no relevance to the previous sample- hence the ‘pop’.

5. The only way to reduce this ‘pop’ is to run a small period of silence during these changes. In other words, the playback software must handle this correctly and play a short silence before it stops sending DoP markers.

6. For example: JRiver v19 or higher has this under WASAPI hence no ‘pop’ between changes.
imagecheck001

7. Another example: there is no pop when using DSD (native) under JRiver.

8. Onkyo HF Player doesn’t have this feature and hence the pop sound.

We hope you found this useful.

 

Thank you iFi.

 

I for one can confirm number 7.   ASIO Native mode under Jriver is very effective at eliminating/reducing this pop.  


Edited by MLGrado - 8/18/14 at 11:38am
post #423 of 972
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chawya22 View Post
 

I'm not a basshead either but I was just curious to see if it actually worked. Subtle is good but I seriously hear no effect at all. The 3D effect is immediately apparent.  Maybe I'll shuffle through my phones and see if it becomes more apparent.

 

It is there.  Very notable on some tracks, not others.    The only time I turn it off is on bass heavy tracks, where it can push things a bit over the edge.  

 

But it is definitely not an in-your-face effect.  It comes on in a more subtle way.  And I like that.  3D effect is indeed more immediately noticeable, though.  

post #424 of 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by MLGrado View Post

It is there.  Very notable on some tracks, not others.    The only time I turn it off is on bass heavy tracks, where it can push things a bit over the edge.  

But it is definitely not an in-your-face effect.  It comes on in a more subtle way.  And I like that.  3D effect is indeed more immediately noticeable, though.  

yes its very subtle, i am not a fan of in your face boom bass boost, but this is different. I am currently listening to some Wayne Shorter recording and its adding a bit more prominence to the contra bass without altering the overall character of the recording
Edited by roamling - 8/18/14 at 2:12pm
post #425 of 972

An Audiophile bass boost?

post #426 of 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by john57 View Post

An Audiophile bass boost?

haha, looks like it!
post #427 of 972

IMO, the XBass boost the sub-bass more which is what most headphones are lacking but not all song goes that deep thus one may not be able to notice the difference but listening to Rudimental, that switch is a must! xD

post #428 of 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillsonChang007 View Post
 

IMO, the XBass boost the sub-bass more which is what most headphones are lacking but not all song goes that deep thus one may not be able to notice the difference but listening to Rudimental, that switch is a must! xD

 

My thoughts exactly!!! For the mid bass, the XBass only adds a small amount of quantity. However, detail in the lower frequencies, in songs I never would have expected to, pop out (they already do without the XBass thanks to the iDSD but the XBass helps define them especially for my L2). There is definitely more going on in the lower frequencies, more than just greater quantity.

post #429 of 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillsonChang007 View Post
 

IMO, the XBass boost the sub-bass more which is what most headphones are lacking but not all song goes that deep thus one may not be able to notice the difference but listening to Rudimental, that switch is a must! xD

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by maricius View Post
 

 

My thoughts exactly!!! For the mid bass, the XBass only adds a small amount of quantity. However, detail in the lower frequencies, in songs I never would have expected to, pop out (they already do without the XBass thanks to the iDSD but the XBass helps define them especially for my L2). There is definitely more going on in the lower frequencies, more than just greater quantity.

I can finally hear the XBass effect. I used Dr. Chesky's: The Ultimate Headphone Demonstration Disc - Track: Shake, Rattle and Roll Test. Once you get into the  ~ 90Hz  and below range, the effect gets more pronounced the lower the frequency goes. I guess my normal musical travels don't get into that range but at least now I know it does work. Very impressive.   


Edited by chawya22 - 8/19/14 at 3:19am
post #430 of 972

Not sure if this coincides with turning off all forced upsampling in Audirvana+ today, or if the micro iDSD is just settling in, but the sound is really opening up right now on my PCM files. Wow. Has anyone else noticed a difference between playing files "clean" into the micro, as opposed to ones upsampled in software?

post #431 of 972

:beerchug:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tf1216 View Post
 

rickyleelee, beautiful pictures! :beerchug:  You have inspired me to take one of my setup (with a DSD file playing).

 

post #432 of 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnewell View Post

Hello,

New member here . Been following this thread after taking delivery of the Micro DSD on Friday.

My Micro DSD is experiencing some power related problems. I can't seem to get to it run off USB power. I have the IUSB power and Gemini Cable. I have gone through the set up numerous times to run it off USB power and it works for a while and then starts blinking that it's low on power.

I know my IUSB is working fine because it works perfectly with my Nano IDSD.

I have followed the instructions closely for USB power. Plug USB in and then turn on the IDSD. It works for a while and then the LED starts blinking red. It's obvious it's still running on the battery.

I can't figure out what I am doing wrong and it's pretty frustrating.

Tom

I think I have found the culprit causing the problems with my Micro DSD. It was my Gemini cable!

I did a complete charge of the Micro using an IPad charger and the Blue Stock USB cable. After fully charging the Micro I put it back in my system. I got music but I was also getting noise in the form of ticks and pops. Very similar to the ticks and pops you hear on vinyl.

So I removed the IUSB and Gemini cable and plugged my Wywires USB cable directly into the Micro. Noise was gone! I then added the IUSB back into the chain but removed the Gemini and replaced it with the blue stock USB cable. Noise still gone.

The Micro is now running off the power of IUSB and appears to be functioning correctly and sounding awesome!

Not sure why my Gemini cable is acting up. It's obvious power from the IUSB was being corrupted somehow by the Gemini cable. It's weird because they worked fine with my Nano DSD. I may have tweaked one of the connectors somehow.

Anyway things appear to be good here now!

Tom
post #433 of 972

Maybe we are in for a fun review of the Micro iDSD

 

http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2014/08/19/canmania-2014-ifi-audio/#more-13101

post #434 of 972
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnewell View Post

I think I have found the culprit causing the problems with my Micro DSD. It was my Gemini cable!

I did a complete charge of the Micro using an IPad charger and the Blue Stock USB cable. After fully charging the Micro I put it back in my system. I got music but I was also getting noise in the form of ticks and pops. Very similar to the ticks and pops you hear on vinyl.

So I removed the IUSB and Gemini cable and plugged my Wywires USB cable directly into the Micro. Noise was gone! I then added the IUSB back into the chain but removed the Gemini and replaced it with the blue stock USB cable. Noise still gone.

The Micro is now running off the power of IUSB and appears to be functioning correctly and sounding awesome!

Not sure why my Gemini cable is acting up. It's obvious power from the IUSB was being corrupted somehow by the Gemini cable. It's weird because they worked fine with my Nano DSD. I may have tweaked one of the connectors somehow.

Anyway things appear to be good here now!

Tom

That is very strange indeed. I have the Gemini as well as the iUSB. No issue there either.
post #435 of 972
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by semeniub View Post
 

Not sure if this coincides with turning off all forced upsampling in Audirvana+ today, or if the micro iDSD is just settling in, but the sound is really opening up right now on my PCM files. Wow. Has anyone else noticed a difference between playing files "clean" into the micro, as opposed to ones upsampled in software?

 

 

Well, there are a thousand different opinions on upsampling and/or digital filtering.   My opinion is that less is better.  So, sending your files direct into the micro is the way I would do it.  You then have the choice of filtering in DAC.. either 'bitperfect' which does no signal processing, no upsampling, no filtering, etc before sending the data on to the hybrid delta sigma converter, or standard and minimum phase, each of which will 'oversample' all audio as it performs 'anti-imaging' filtering before sending the data to the hybrid delta sigma converter.  

 

So, when you upsample in software, you add extra steps to what already will happen in the DAC itself.  

 

 

All that said, experiment and settle on what sounds best to you.  

 

Have fun

 

Andrew

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