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Why would those with HE-6 prefer speaker amps? - Page 2

post #16 of 95
For me, the presentation on the 6s are more like a speaker off speaker amps than any headphone I've heard. The impact and dynamic speed with sufficient power is startling. And no, the power isn't all used. It's the availability of current and the sustaining of that current during demanding sections that sets the speaker amps apart. There are differences in speaker amps too. I've found the high current amps to sound the best. That would make sense as not all amps handle stat/planars well. The power supply investment is the difference. I've liked integrateds and power amps better than receivers for sound value. Listen to a 50w Marantz receiver vs a 125w Simaudio Moon I600 or the 140w Naim NAP500. Of course they live in different price worlds but to those who say an amp is an amp, please.
post #17 of 95
Thread Starter 

What I like to know is does damping factor apply for the planars since it's impedance is totally flat showing it's resistive.  HD800 for example has resonance at a certain point on the spectrum, and would the damping factor only apply to that resonance area since resonance is where the oscillation is peaked.

 

Also, how come resonance is where the impedance is peaked?  I thought resonance is where there is least amount of damping?

post #18 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post

What I like to know is does damping factor apply for the planars since it's impedance is totally flat showing it's resistive.  HD800 for example has resonance at a certain point on the spectrum, and would the damping factor only apply to that resonance area since resonance is where the oscillation is peaked.

Also, how come resonance is where the impedance is peaked?  I thought resonance is where there is least amount of damping?

Yes damping factor applies to planars. Damping factor is a nondimensional parameter that describes how much control an amplifier has over the transducer via electrical damping. Please see Wikipedia for the background info on damping factor

The damping factor is important to the process of the amplifier controlling the excursion of the speaker in the presence of mechanical effects (e.g., inertia).

The effect you are thinking of is voltage division, where the power delivered to the speaker varies with frequency when the speaker has frequency-dependant impedance. This is only tangentially related to damping factor.

Mechanical damping and electrical damping are two distinct phenomena. Here, "resonance" is being used casually without specifying what type. The HD 800 will have mechanical modes sensitive to resonances. The headphones will have mechanical damping while the electrical circuit of yhe amp and headphones will have electrical damping.



Cheers
Edited by ab initio - 8/2/14 at 11:26am
post #19 of 95
Thread Starter 

I'm unclear what the consequences of electrical damping.  For mechanical I get, since it will control the vibrations better.  How is electrical and mechanical damping related?  Ok, I got why the impedance peak with impedance. It's the point where reactance peak. That peak is not resistive.  Resistive is flat graph.

 

Wouldn't a resistor in series shift the resonance?    


Edited by SilverEars - 8/2/14 at 11:35am
post #20 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post

For me, the presentation on the 6s are more like a speaker off speaker amps than any headphone I've heard. The impact and dynamic speed with sufficient power is startling. And no, the power isn't all used. It's the availability of current and the sustaining of that current during demanding sections that sets the speaker amps apart. There are differences in speaker amps too. I've found the high current amps to sound the best. That would make sense as not all amps handle stat/planars well. The power supply investment is the difference. I've liked integrateds and power amps better than receivers for sound value. Listen to a 50w Marantz receiver vs a 125w Simaudio Moon I600 or the 140w Naim NAP500. Of course they live in different price worlds but to those who say an amp is an amp, please.

If the power isn't all used, it doesn't make any difference. If two amps output an identical waveform when driving identical loads to ~1W, they will sound the same, even if one of them falls on its face above 2W and the other can drive 2kW happily. Similarly, your claims about a 50W Marantz vs a 140W Naim are useless without blind testing or other evidence, unless you believe that one of them has a substantially flawed design (to the point where the flaws are audible, in which case a 100wpc Denon or Yamaha receiver would be a better choice). The fact of the matter is, as long as an amp is 1) competently designed, 2) reasonably modern, 3) solid state, and 4) adequately powerful for the desired load, an amp really is just an amp.

post #21 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjl View Post
 

If the power isn't all used, it doesn't make any difference. If two amps output an identical waveform when driving identical loads to ~1W, they will sound the same, even if one of them falls on its face above 2W and the other can drive 2kW happily. Similarly, your claims about a 50W Marantz vs a 140W Naim are useless without blind testing or other evidence, unless you believe that one of them has a substantially flawed design (to the point where the flaws are audible, in which case a 100wpc Denon or Yamaha receiver would be a better choice). The fact of the matter is, as long as an amp is 1) competently designed, 2) reasonably modern, 3) solid state, and 4) adequately powerful for the desired load, an amp really is just an amp.

yeah, this is what I found out today.  Some people are using speaker amps and tapping into the speaker output with resistor networks which is just essentially reducing the wattage supplied and seems pointless.  I read 100's of wattage speaker amps being used which can easily blow headphones.  I found out today that some are using parallel resistance and don't realize it doesn't do anything.  This is one of the reason for dedicated headphone amps, to limit the output and give the range of volume without blowing the phones.  It makes sense to go speaker amp if the sound is to the liking and it's a cheaper alternative to a headphone amp, but headphone out should be used.

post #22 of 95
A poorly supervised headphone amp CAN also blow up headphones. No?

Does anyone reading here still have the picture of Dr. Fang demoing the HE-6 strapped to a Threshold amp? That was my badda-bing, badda-boom moment and continue to be puzzled by "blowing up" headphone hysteria!

It appears, more often than not, that speaker amp phobia is driven more by the desire for owning the "cute little box" on top of the desk, sitting there nicely next to the other sonic, cute enclosures. Speaker amps do lack the cute factor. (The Threshold A400 looks like a mini-bulldozer but, boy, does it sound great with the HE-6.)

Best regards.
post #23 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambosenior View Post

A poorly supervised headphone amp CAN also blow up headphones. No?

Does anyone reading here still have the picture of Dr. Fang demoing the HE-6 strapped to a Threshold amp? That was my badda-bing, badda-boom moment and continue to be puzzled by "blowing up" headphone hysteria!

It appears, more often than not, that speaker amp phobia is driven more by the desire for owning the "cute little box" on top of the desk, sitting there nicely next to the other sonic, cute enclosures. Speaker amps do lack the cute factor. (The Threshold A400 looks like a mini-bulldozer but, boy, does it sound great with the HE-6.)

Best regards.

 

post #24 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambosenior View Post

A poorly supervised headphone amp CAN also blow up headphones. No?

Does anyone reading here still have the picture of Dr. Fang demoing the HE-6 strapped to a Threshold amp? That was my badda-bing, badda-boom moment and continue to be puzzled by "blowing up" headphone hysteria!

It appears, more often than not, that speaker amp phobia is driven more by the desire for owning the "cute little box" on top of the desk, sitting there nicely next to the other sonic, cute enclosures. Speaker amps do lack the cute factor. (The Threshold A400 looks like a mini-bulldozer but, boy, does it sound great with the HE-6.)

Best regards.

I wouldn't say I have "speaker amp phobia", more of just "speaker amp puzzlement". Sure, as long as you're careful with the output levels, a speaker amp shouldn't blow your headphones, and honestly, the risk of that is just as high with an O2 with highly sensitive IEMs (which I do all the time). It's more just that it isn't necessary, and a high end speaker amp is very large and expensive (and provides no benefit over an appropriate headphone amp).

post #25 of 95
Thank you! Like I said: badda-bing.
Edited by Mambosenior - 8/2/14 at 6:34pm
post #26 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjl View Post
 

I wouldn't say I have "speaker amp phobia", more of just "speaker amp puzzlement". Sure, as long as you're careful with the output levels, a speaker amp shouldn't blow your headphones, and honestly, the risk of that is just as high with an O2 with highly sensitive IEMs (which I do all the time). It's more just that it isn't necessary, and a high end speaker amp is very large and expensive (and provides no benefit over an appropriate headphone amp).

 

What an appropriate headphone amp for the HE-6?

post #27 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjl View Post

I wouldn't say I have "speaker amp phobia", more of just "speaker amp puzzlement". Sure, as long as you're careful with the output levels, a speaker amp shouldn't blow your headphones, and honestly, the risk of that is just as high with an O2 with highly sensitive IEMs (which I do all the time). It's more just that it isn't necessary, and a high end speaker amp is very large and expensive (and provides no benefit over an appropriate headphone amp).
I think people prefer speaker amps because they listen. I had a v200 when I got np my he-6 . It is reasonably I powerful and well respected and it sounded pleasant with the he-6. Substitute my blue circle power amp and the v200 sounds like a starter kit. It should, it costs a good but less. The advantage of the he-6 is that it is inefficient enough that you can use real quality speaker amps on it. Last week at caf I tried the he-6 with the liquid glass, the mal valve and the crayon amps. All with good sources. These are damn good headphone amps. They all sounded good to great, going up with price. Only to crayon, which is north of 10 k, really dido the job. I can get a good speaker amp used that will do a good job for less than that. And just as a note, the woo people do not even have an he-6 to try on their stuff (and they have everything else) because they know the result. If you have this question, take an he-6 and an adapter to an audio store and listen. You will get it.
post #28 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post
 

 

What an appropriate headphone amp for the HE-6?

From the specs I've seen, a fairly astonishingly powerful one. I don't have much knowledge off the top of my head about which specific headphone amps measure well at very high output, though if the specs are accurate, the AMB B22 should be more than adequate, as should the Schiit Asgard 2. I can't unreservedly recommend either of these, since I haven't seen a complete set of measurements on either, but if the designs are well done, they should both be able to power an HE-6 just fine. An O2 should also be able to power the HE6 if (and only if) you listen to your music at a low enough level that the loudest volume spikes don't exceed the capability of the amp. If the published specs for the HE-6 are accurate, this should be true for the majority of listeners, but if Jude's measurements on the HE-6 are accurate (which imply a significantly lower sensitivity than the manufacturer's spec), the O2 becomes a much more questionable proposition.

 

(In fact, given the power demands of the HE-6, it might make sense to use an inexpensive speaker amp to drive them, since many of the headphone amps capable of doing the job are relatively expensive anyways).

post #29 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by gjc11028 View Post


my blue circle power amp .

I must have missed this along the way. Tell me more about your blue circle amp.

post #30 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velomane View Post

I must have missed this along the way. Tell me more about your blue circle amp.

http://bluecircle.com/page62.html

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/bluecircle_bc204.htm
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