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What Happened to Head-Fi? (Rant) - Page 10

post #136 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzeanse View Post
 

 

But hey, someone will come along and refute my argument with some long-winded version of the word "nope." 

 

 

lol. I think you just nutshelled the whole problem with forums.

post #137 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

 

That is one thing a lot of people don't realise. Actually, a lot of people don't realise that science isn't a magic arbiter of truth. Not picking on him (also because I know he'll find his name and see this) but Tyll has made mistakes in his measurements, such as not getting a perfect seal with IEMs or headphones and getting results that were out of whack. The thing is, he not only realises his own limitations but is seeking to do better with what he does. I've sadly seen people take things he said, distort them and declare, in effect "Tyll said it, so it is universally true." I've also had people distort the things I say and I thankfully learned early on to be conservative with my comments and add caveats where they are important. I also encourage people to do the same.

 

Though sometimes we do get fantastic gear and we just have to get a bit excited at how much we are enjoying stuff.


Being misquoted is pretty much a part of the "online experience". To be fair, a lot of it has to do with the person doing the quoting not actually understanding what it is they read. The other side of that coin is when I hear of such an appeal to authority, I do my best to track down the original information and verify. (Was it Reagan who said "Trust, but verify"?). I strongly urge anyone else to do the same before accepting a quote as verbatim or gospel. It's a due diligence issue that comes along with getting info from the web.

 

To the original point. I sincerely wish that somewhere along the line a standard reference phone had been picked. Things would have been a lot simpler if something like a V6 had been used as a standard set up phone and the results verified and published. It would allow folk who want to make their own measurements  to calibrate their rigs against a standard phone and set of results (and an affordable one at that).

post #138 of 215

I don't think people get offended as much if you call them an idiot....most are more mature than that.  But criticise their favorite can then calling them an idiot, watch out!  Apparently most are not more mature than that...I should know...I find myself acting like a two year old too many times!

 

:frown:

post #139 of 215
I think trouble began a long time ago when technical specs became the new norm for defining the quality of equipment through marketing.

If you think about it, objectives were meant for engineers and designers, not consumers. Shifting this burden to the end user is not as easy as it seems. It presumes that the person making the purchasing decision knows everything that the designer knew.
Edited by Joe Skubinski - 6/14/14 at 9:02pm

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post #140 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
 

I don't think people get offended as much if you call them an idiot....most are more mature than that.  But criticise their favorite can then calling them an idiot, watch out!  Apparently most are not more mature than that...I should know...I find myself acting like a two year old too many times!

 

:frown:

 

I don't know, SP. I'd take you for at least a seven year old even during your wildest rants. :D 

post #141 of 215
[Mod Edit: Added a spoiler tag as the post is too long.]
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooko View Post

The OP specifically said has owned - he didn't say "does own" or "currently own".  The difference between auditioning a headphone and owning a headphone can be huge.  I'll give you an example I've used before - it's at the extreme end - but it does highlight why spending considerable time with a headphone can give a more accurate opinion (bearing in mind that this is all just opinion and is subjective to a persons particular tastes).

This was originally in response to a debate on burn-in:

Above in a nutshell is why short term impressions, meet impressions, and not spending hours (or preferably days) with audio gear before posting a review or advice on them is IMO not a good idea.  Your post could influence their buying decision.  Sometimes the potential money outlay we're talking is considerable.

The other thing I do suggest is to make sure people know what your gear is, what your listening preferences are, what your biases and limitations are.

That's why when I review any gear now I try and leave a baseline about what gear I've owned, what my preferences are, and how my reviews can be construed.  I also tend to look for the same when researching a headphone.

I say we all ditch these current recommendations of "spending hours (or preferably days) with audio gear before posting a review or advice on them" largely because we live in a much faster pace of life where people want impressions as soon as there's a whiff of something news release.

So, what's to replace the old with the new streamlined way I say paves the way?

Prepare yourself for the new age of superest instant data to base all you future audio tech buying considerations on - I call it - "OVER 9000"

Here's an example of how this all works:

I've just picked up these Sig DJ's by ULTRASONE, and they punch the bass - hard bro's - on top of that - they look darn cool and whites one of my fave colors on a HP and black so its double the win factor, but enough of all this gibbity gabber, all you guys need to know is - what do I give these cans POWER LEVEL?.......
ITS OVER 9000!!!!!



If power level is over 9K - it's green light, good to go bro wink.gif

Under 9k = forget about it

Just look for the main over 9k power level rating on all impressions for total win tech buying - easy

Trust me - I'm an audiophile from the tinternets....

I'm open to any suggestions of tweaking this winning formula smily_headphones1.gif
biggrin.gif
post #142 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

 

That is one thing a lot of people don't realise. Actually, a lot of people don't realise that science isn't a magic arbiter of truth. Not picking on him (also because I know he'll find his name and see this) but Tyll has made mistakes in his measurements, such as not getting a perfect seal with IEMs or headphones and getting results that were out of whack. The thing is, he not only realises his own limitations but is seeking to do better with what he does. I've sadly seen people take things he said, distort them and declare, in effect "Tyll said it, so it is universally true." I've also had people distort the things I say and I thankfully learned early on to be conservative with my comments and add caveats where they are important. I also encourage people to do the same.

 

Though sometimes we do get fantastic gear and we just have to get a bit excited at how much we are enjoying stuff.

 

If all headphones are measured the same way, then you have a strong basis of comparison, and the flatter they are across the spectrum then the more neutral they will sound. Certainly, if you were to stick a tiny wireless microphone in your ear drum and measure that, the graph would change, and it would be different for every person, but that is besides the point of measuring headphones to begin with (and strictly only applies to transducers). The whole point is to measure everything the same way so that you are able to conclusively compare frequency response graphs. When you measure a DT770 80 ohm and a Grado RS1 the same way, the Beyer will have more bass, on the graph AND on your head. All that's left to do for the consumer is take a frequency graph of a headphone they know well, and compare others to it. It's not rocket science, and is accurate enough.

 

Measurements are a tool that is worth using for comparison purposes, and used as such is a great way to know which headphones you're more likely to enjoy (or dislike), given that you have an idea of what type of sound signature you're looking for and what it would look like on a frequency graph. The measurements may not be perfect but they are plenty accurate enough to know what to expect when they are on your head. What people don't realize unfortunately for their wallets is not that science isn't "magical", but rather that there are plenty of claims from audiophiles and manufacturers alike that are akin to "magic", and this is a much bigger problem than "slightly" inacurate measurements. Certainly the goal here isn't to make people feel bad but to have them use the tools at their disposition in a comprehensive and helpful way, and hopefully have them avoid wasting thousands of dollars on audiophile urban legends thinking they will get "better sound", which is entirely subjective and will vary considerably from person to person depending on the music they like, the level of discomfort they're willing to put up with, and their preferred sound signature(s). No offense, but instead of nit-picking the results of people who are trying to do just that, it seems to me that it would be more helpful to the community to praise the work and explain how to interpret it meaningfully instead.


Edited by elmoe - 6/15/14 at 3:33am
post #143 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb3723 View Post

........ totally OT dribble .......
 

Shakes head - walks away

post #144 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooko View Post

Shakes head - walks away

Me too frown.gif

NSOH
post #145 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoe View Post
 
No offense, but instead of nit-picking the results of people who are trying to do just that, it seems to me that it would be more helpful to the community to praise the work and explain how to interpret it meaningfully instead.

 

No offense taken. I'm not nit-picking, I'm just saying that people sometimes have un-realistic expectations about what it is possible to do with measurements and don't understand that they can be imprefect. I think @Joe Skubinski summed it up perfectly in his comment. Explaining technology to people who don't know what the engineer of a product knows is difficult and can be as misleading as it can be helpful. I'm totally with you on "headphones measured the same way" otherwise though. Consistency is important.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cb3723 View Post
 
I say we all ditch these current recommendations of "spending hours (or preferably days) with audio gear before posting a review or advice on them" largely because we live in a much faster pace of life where people want impressions as soon as there's a whiff of something news release.

 

I say we ban people who post huge pictures all over the place as it slows down the forum for people who want to read impressions faster. :veryevil:

post #146 of 215
dunno why we'd expect online forums to behave any differently than society generally. and don't agree with the idea that you have to own or live with a can to post an informed opinion about it. i've found that living with a can only confirms my initial impression. i just put myself through a long (and probably unnecessary) process of second guessing and rationalisation before ending up right back where i started. wink.gif
post #147 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post

 

Setting pre-defined threads for every product would be a PITA. So far we've settled on a main thread and and an impressions thread for popular products, such as the Oppo PM-1. Appreciation threads generally aren't allowed any longer and are re-named impressions threads most of the time. This is because we found people would get upset when someone had negative impressions of a pair of headphones. 

 

Plenty of that happening in the Impressions threads as well - and quite frankly, I think people who are praising a product tend to get a little more leeway in the form of personal attacks on those who are critical than the other way around.    

 

Not a big deal, but if we are giving honest feedback, something to consider (I am obviously biased, but I dont think that is affecting this statement).  Dont want to get into it too much here anyway.

post #148 of 215

I un-subbed from this thread because I don't wanna get banned but......since this is the thread and mods are watching...here it goes.

 

 

Worst.

Most damaging part of this site has nothing to do with in-thread chaos.

That hurts folks feelings.

 

The review system? That hurts folks wallets since the reviews are searchable by non members looking for some opinions of people that know more than they do.

 

http://www.head-fi.org/products/ibasso-dx90-portable-digital-audio-player

 

 

I am not a fan of this item. I saw a reviewer state some things I thought as well. He went into detail.

 

(On a related note, some reviews are a few sentences and no image to confirm the person even posses the item they reviewed) 

 

This guy ...he did have pics. He wrote a lot. Then threw 1.5 stars at it and I knew **** was gonna explode and it did. I think he really believed every word he typed.

As I predicted **** hit the fan really fast. Shouts of "Troll", flags for mods. 

The guy has been on as recent as a week ago. Was he just a pissed dude with a legit opinion about the lack of value for his money? Pure troll? We will never know.

What we do know is what happened next.

 

A group review with pics provided by several members was posted and hey....it's by the very person who screamed troll. I took a screenshot. I won't share it but it seemed so egregious to so clearly be using a very serious site tool as a push back weapon. I was sick.

 

Still am.

 

 

 

I knew he'd get attacked. (he did) I knew there would be a counter review,(there was) not done for the joy of sharing but to put down the thoughts of a conflicting view....and using perhaps the most serious tool on this site like a toy.

 

If I ran this place the person that shouted troll then hosted a group pic supplied counter review would be gone. Everyone who participated would be on thin ice and the review system would have warnings with dire consequences if ****ed with.

 

Joe and Jane .P. Public have no idea what is going on and could end up feeling like the guy who gave it 1.5 stars. They don't know and shouldn't have to. 

 

There are mods between us in here but not between members and search engine users.  I still exist on this site  is a testament to the consideration given by the folks tasked with doing so. I'm happy to be here. I just wanted to touch on the thing that has not been mentioned (if it has been sorry). I gotta believe that some folks with influence get headaches seeing the sites heaviest tool wielded with light hands far too often.

 

 

If anyone thinks I'm reading into stuff too much I'm not. It happens too often and in the case I linked to I was there "live". Watched the whole sad spectacle play out like a bad movie giving away the ending in the intro's.


Edited by Hawaiibadboy - 6/15/14 at 7:54am
post #149 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

 

Not picking on him (also because I know he'll find his name and see this) but Tyll has made mistakes in his measurements, such as not getting a perfect seal with IEMs or headphones and getting results that were out of whack. The thing is, he not only realises his own limitations but is seeking to do better with what he does. I've sadly seen people take things he said, distort them and declare, in effect "Tyll said it, so it is universally true." 

 

Yes, indeed, I've made mistakes on measurements...THD+noise is particularly problematic. And thanks, Amos, I do feel the need to continue to improve my work. 

 

It's defiantly nice when people agree with my assessments, I do try to write reviews in such a way that even when people's preferences don't align with mine the information remains meaningful.

But it's also VERY important that people realize I'm just one dude with an opinion and contrary opinions may be just as valid. I take my position as an authority very seriously, but I'm far from infallible. It's important in this hobby that people take the development of their own opinion and authority seriously as well because, in the end, that's the only thing we can convey to each other. 

 

It's very tempting for n00bs to try to talk like long-time members with significant experience...and it's understandable as well---everyone like to be valuable. But I'd encourage those new to the hobby to spend as much of your time as possible getting ears-on time with cans and reading the opinions of others and how they relate to your listening experience. Experience doesn't happen over-night, or by reading the experiences of others second hand. There are no shortcuts. What n00bs don't easily see is how an overabundance of second hand commentary obscures the subtleties in the listening experience that we're often trying to get at here.

 

Another tough thing is we have so many members that are very young. No offense teens, but the time required to become a reliable source of listening information means you'll be well into your 20's before your opinions are truly worthy. Not picking on you here, just suggesting your focus should be on gaining experience and not developing your ability to give advice. Your greatest tool in developing in the headphone hobby is the ability to ask interesting questions. Having interesting opinions will develop naturally from that. 

 

Maybe the most important thing we can all do is develop the ability to deliver a contrary opinion without also conveying disrespect. I reckon Amos would have less posts to axe if we managed that.

post #150 of 215
" I do feel the need to continue to improve my work. 
 
But it's also VERY important that people realize I'm just one dude with an opinion and contrary opinions may be just as valid.
 

Maybe the most important thing we can all do is develop the ability to deliver a contrary opinion without also conveying disrespect. "

 

=====

 

I like the humility and the wisdom of this man...n he is funny too...( ultrasone vid )

My headfi life is more interesting becos of him.

 

BUT i will never forgive him for knocking off the LCD2....though he obviously struggled on his vid.

 

 

okkkkkkkk i forgive him.. :P

 

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