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What Happened to Head-Fi? (Rant) - Page 8

post #106 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylv View Post
 

Right, I understand that.  But I don't think mentioning a specific model to someone based on the opinions of others should be as big of a deal as some people are trying to make it out to be.  I would never tell someone "Buy the V-Moda M100.  It is exactly what you need."  But I see no harm in telling someone they should look into it, if it is someone new to Head-Fi that had their Beats stolen and want to replace them with something else, chances are they only know Beats, Sony, and Skullcandy headphones exist in the world.

 

It is a big deal when people are spending a lot of money. The main thing is - why would you even tell someone to look into something you haven't tried yourself? Ultimately it doesn't matter what you think you know, what you've read, what you've been told, if you haven't heard the headphones yourself. We can argue about specific examples all day and night, but as a general rule, it seems to me to be fair to ask new members not to give their opinion on something they've never heard before - simply because it's just not their opinion to begin with.

 

Why would you enter a thread and reply recommending something you have no experience with in the first place? What is so hard about simply not replying, and letting someone with actual experience reply instead?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude View Post
 

 

That's also true.

 

In most fields of research, 95% of what is said and disseminated is not via first hand experience. When I tell you about the orbits of the planets, I didn't observe it myself. I read it in a book. When I tell you about the after-effects of the Indonesian tsunami, I didn't visit the devastation for myself. I read news articles and saw video.

 

It gets really knotty when, for example, one reads 50 reviews of a product that all say X (for example, headphone A is bassy) but then someone listened to them and says Y (that A has no bass). I, being someone who saw the pile of reviews, am likely to go "but all these people said X" and the response as per the OP here would be for me to shut up because I'm speaking on something I have no experience with. However, my statement isn't uninformed, the opposite is true. I've pooled together the experience of others and am (from my perspective) weighing what I heard first-hand from THESE people against what I'm hearing first-hand from THIS person. This is a perfectly valid way of discussing.

 

Even if someone has never heard the VModa M100 I think they have a dang good idea who to recommend them to. Even if you've never heard a Grado you know not to recommend them to bassheads. It is ENTIRELY valid to pass on information gleaned through sources other than personal experience. Heck, who's to say you (or I) know what we're talking about anyway? I might listen to something and come up with a totally asinine opinion of them based on flaws in my listening or who knows what else. 

 

 

Nobody is going to pay for planets' orbits or Indonesian tsunamis. We are talking about discussing products and giving recommendations for people to spend their hard earned cash, not to deliberate philosophical topics...

 

Your second paragraph is different entirely. In a discussion, you're welcome to say "many of the reviews I've read said X headphone had Y characteristic". But this is a discussion, not a recommendation. It's different than going into a thread where some user asks whether or not he should buy X or Y headphone, and you chiming in to say "well according to all the reviews I've read, Y headphone is better". As you said so yourself previously, reviews are subjective, and it doesn't matter what you've read, because your opinion could be very different had you any kind of experience with said gear. This is exactly why you shouldn't recommend things you haven't heard, or discuss about a product stating things as "matter of fact" when you have no experience with said product.

 

Of course nobody's opinion is going to be perfect, but what comes closest to it is ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. This is the whole point here. Nobody cares or can judge how many reviews you've read or how much actual knowledge you have about any piece of gear, which is exactly why you shouldn't post about them without prior experience, because at the very least, whoever reads your posts will know that you have your own experience to base your opinion on.


Edited by elmoe - 6/14/14 at 9:59am
post #107 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoe View Post
 

 

 

Why would you enter a thread and reply recommending something you have no experience with in the first place? What is so hard about simply not replying, and letting someone with actual experience reply instead?

 

 I don't know, maybe trying to be helpful?

 

 If someone started a thread and asked what is the biggest "Bass Cannon" headphone on the market, I would tell them to read HawaiiBadBoy's thread about the JVC SZ2000.  I have not personally heard them myself, but HBB has a 20 page thread dedicated to finding out if anything can compare to them in terms of bass quantity, (and nothing ever does).

 

  If I can answer the question posted, I am supposed to ignore it and hope HBB finds time to browse the forum, hopefully come across that thread, and answer it for them?  That doesn't make any sense.

post #108 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylv View Post
 

 

 I don't know, maybe trying to be helpful?

 

 If someone started a thread and asked what is the biggest "Bass Cannon" headphone on the market, I would tell them to read HawaiiBadBoy's thread about the JVC SZ2000.  I have not personally heard them myself, but HBB has a 20 page thread dedicated to finding out if anything can compare to them in terms of bass quantity, (and nothing ever does).

 

  If I can answer the question posted, I am supposed to ignore it and hope HBB finds time to browse the forum, hopefully come across that thread, and answer it for them?  That doesn't make any sense.

 

That's different though. There's a difference between pointing to a knowledgeable opinion, and dispensing said opinion yourself as if it's your own. Pointing a user to a thread that might be relevant is one thing, stating you know X or Y is the gear for them as fact when you have no experience is another.

post #109 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoe View Post
 

^ and this is exactly the kind of post that makes me roll my eyes, no offense.

 

There is literally a TON of objective data that we can use to determine product quality. Going even further: it is the PRIMARY thing we should look at when judging a product's quality. Anyone who's been in this hobby longer than 5 seconds will tell you that.

 

Now that doesn't invalidate your point entirely - subjectivity certainly plays its part and going by your own preferred "flavor" of sound signature is by no means a bad thing. That being said, saying graphs are not a good tool is simply having no understanding of them in the first place. Now I'm sure there are some obscure measurements done by people who don't know what they're doing - however the majority of measurements we see on head-fi tend to come from very acceptable, reputable sources. If you choose to deny yourself the decades of expertise that you have free access to, that's fine, more power to you, but let's not go and invalidate actual scientific facts and repeatedly accurate measurements all because you think "you hear different".

 

No offense taken, so long as you aren't offended when I say the same of yours.

 

There is objective data, but its utility only goes so far. You start trying to buy headphones based solely on response curves and measurements and I promise you that you will be disappointed. They can nudge you in the right direction in a grander sense, but that's all. That is ALL. You cannot "chart" what I will like versus what I will not and there is no way to read graphs and buy a headphone confident in knowing what your opinion of it will be when you listen to it. It's like claiming you can decide how good a movie is based on an algorithm, or how good a beer is from its chemical makeup. 

 

I have been in this hobby "longer than 5 seconds" (along with many others) and I will trust the analysis of experts over the numbers on a graph any day of the effing week. PERIOD. I'll take a Tyll review over a HeadRoom chart comparison 10 times out of 10. Anyone with genuine experience in audio will tell you that this is simply how it's done. Graphs and data plots give you a general picture, but without analysis (be it first or second-hand) you will simply not know what you're dealing with. End of transaction.

 

Worship at the temple of FR Graphs is as foolhardy as anything else. If I'd simply gone with the measurements, I would have NEVER bought the SE535s. The way they graph out isn't what I generally think of as a sound I want. And yet, because of guys like Tyll and others, I pulled the trigger and holy balls these are golden. You just plain will not know what you will think on a personal level of all that data. Yes, you can look at something and go "holy crap that is WAY more bass than I want", but that's it. Like I said, objective data pushes you in the right direction, but that's it.

 

I've tried lots of headphones, owned a bunch, bought a couple. Without exception, each one I bought (and definitely the ones I liked) were the result of an amalgamation of hands-on reviews from others. You just won't know from plots and graphs. 

post #110 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude View Post
 

 

No offense taken, so long as you aren't offended when I say the same of yours.

 

There is objective data, but its utility only goes so far. You start trying to buy headphones based solely on response curves and measurements and I promise you that you will be disappointed. They can nudge you in the right direction in a grander sense, but that's all. That is ALL. You cannot "chart" what I will like versus what I will not and there is no way to read graphs and buy a headphone confident in knowing what your opinion of it will be when you listen to it. It's like claiming you can decide how good a movie is based on an algorithm, or how good a beer is from its chemical makeup. 

 

I have been in this hobby "longer than 5 seconds" (along with many others) and I will trust the analysis of experts over the numbers on a graph any day of the effing week. PERIOD. I'll take a Tyll review over a HeadRoom chart comparison 10 times out of 10. Anyone with genuine experience in audio will tell you that this is simply how it's done. Graphs and data plots give you a general picture, but without analysis (be it first or second-hand) you will simply not know what you're dealing with. End of transaction.

 

Worship at the temple of FR Graphs is as foolhardy as anything else. If I'd simply gone with the measurements, I would have NEVER bought the SE535s. The way they graph out isn't what I generally think of as a sound I want. And yet, because of guys like Tyll and others, I pulled the trigger and holy balls these are golden. You just plain will not know what you will think on a personal level of all that data. Yes, you can look at something and go "holy crap that is WAY more bass than I want", but that's it. Like I said, objective data pushes you in the right direction, but that's it.

 

I've tried lots of headphones, owned a bunch, bought a couple. Without exception, each one I bought (and definitely the ones I liked) were the result of an amalgamation of hands-on reviews from others. You just won't know from plots and graphs. 

There is so much controversy in this post it will be hard to address it all.

 

First of all, nobody said you should buy headphones based strictly on their measurements. There are obviously a lot more factors that come into play, comfort, looks, etc etc. However, a frequency response graph is what your ear can hear. If you like bass, it will show up on a frequency response graph. If you like a mid frequency bump, it will show up also. There's a reason people say they like "V shaped" headphones - because the frequency response will show bass and treble a few dBs higher than the midrange.

 

It's funny that you mention the analysis of experts and Tyll, because they're the first to emphasize how important measurements are - Tyll pretty much measures anything he can get his hands on, and the resulting opinion he has of the products he reviews more often than not is the direct result of said measurements. Case in point:

 

Quote:
 Ahhh! Someone slipped liquid gold into my ears! The genies at Shure did some real magic here. A look at the squarewave response will show that they’re playing some interesting games with the tweeter crossover to speed up transitions and it certainly shows up in the sound of these cans. The highs are airy and deep, mids are pure gold, and the low end is bottomless.

 

There is no worship involved here, just science. Your Shure headphones may simply pair up well with your gear and end up giving you a frequency response that you enjoy. Pair them up with a completely neutral source/amp and you may not like them anymore. Perhaps you just got used to their sound signature, or perhaps you just have no idea what your "ideal" frequency response graph would look like.

 

Will you just know from plots and graphs? Probably not. But after awhile, and enough knowledge, you will certainly know what to expect. The reason your SE535s don't graph the way you think you would want sound to be is because you don't know what "sound you like" would look like graphed out in the first place. In any case, there is no worshiping anything, FR graphs are as handy a tool as anything else when you learn how to read them, but ultimately it is what sounds good that matters - and the two never contradict each other, unlike what you'd like to think.


Edited by elmoe - 6/14/14 at 10:59am
post #111 of 215

I use Bayes Theorem to select all my audio gear:D

post #112 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutnicks View Post
 

I use Bayes Theorem to select all my audio gear:D

 

Considering the sheer amount of headphones you own, I would say you're in dire need of using something to help you pick what to buy and stop wasting your money ;) 

post #113 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoe View Post
 

 

Considering the sheer amount of headphones you own, I would say you're in dire need of using something to help you pick what to buy and stop wasting your money ;) 


Oh, you don't know the half of it;) Come to think of it, I don't know the half of it:D

post #114 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoe View Post
 

words

 

If Tyll thought data plots were of primary importance he wouldn't tell you what he thought of them from listening to them. His WoF wouldn't be based on the ones he enjoyed the most. He uses the charts to explain what he's telling you he hears. That you can't seem to discern this is troubling given how much you hold your expertise sacred. 

 

You're being contrarian for its own sake, it's pointless, it's annoying, I'm not entertaining you any more. Ta.

post #115 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutnicks View Post
 


Oh, you don't know the half of it;) Come to think of it, I don't know the half of it:D

 

Such are the perils of being a head-fier :D

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude View Post
 

 

If Tyll thought data plots were of primary importance he wouldn't tell you what he thought of them from listening to them. His WoF wouldn't be based on the ones he enjoyed the most. He uses the charts to explain what he's telling you he hears. That you can't seem to discern this is troubling given how much you hold your expertise sacred. 

 

You're being contrarian for its own sake, it's pointless, it's annoying, I'm not entertaining you any more. Ta.

 

Of course he would tell you what he thought of the gear from listening. You're contradicting yourself again. If he uses the charts to explain what he's telling you he hears, then those charts serve to exemplify what kind of sound signature he enjoys to begin with. They're not mutually exclusive, in fact they're both closely related to one another, which is the whole point to begin with, and is why he bothers making measurements in the first place. Seems to me you're the one missing the point here, and you're quick to be annoyed when arguments don't fit your opinions. 

post #116 of 215

Couldn't all of this be fixed by sigs that told others which genres they like, from most to least and also verifying what people own. This way anyone could easily determine which people are talking out of their asses and which ones have their best interest in mind. 

post #117 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folex View Post

Couldn't all of this be fixed by sigs that told others which genres they like, from most to least and also verifying what people own. This way anyone could easily determine which people are talking out of their asses and which ones have their best interest in mind. 

That's one idea, but I've a simpler one - ban the original OP for trolling - 10 years a head-fi member with zero contribution until he drops his grumpy old man whinge?

lol biggrin.gif
post #118 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb3723 View Post


That's one idea, but I've a simpler one - ban the original OP for trolling - 10 years a head-fi member with zero contribution until he drops his grumpy old man whinge?

lol biggrin.gif

 

I wanna be a grumpy old man!!!

 

I don't like your hair cb3723

post #119 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutnicks View Post
 


Thats  a brilliant little microcosm of the site in general.

 

 

Is it REALLY?? I read through that whole thread (pretty amusing) - that dude was a massive d-bag and I'm glad to see he was banned, but I really haven't seen any threads like that. Saying its a microcosm of the site in general to me seems very exaggerated. I will say in fairness, I don't go on EVERY board, so I'm not the most active member, but I do consider myself an active participant and to me, that doesn't really seem common here.

post #120 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by thievesarmy View Post

Is it REALLY?? I read through that whole thread (pretty amusing) - that dude was a massive d-bag and I'm glad to see he was banned, but I really haven't seen any threads like that. Saying its a microcosm of the site in general to me seems very exaggerated. I will say in fairness, I don't go on EVERY board, so I'm not the most active member, but I do consider myself an active participant and to me, that doesn't really seem common here.

What's a "d-bag"?

Is it like a tea bag? We have plenty of those here in the UK, Earl Grey being one of my favourites, but I get the impression you aren't referring to a hot beverage...or are you?

....and what's your game here?
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