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Battery usage & longevity

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by philiptw View Post
 

 

Excessive heat can shorten battery life yes, but i think when the DX90 get warm, the temperature is not that high to cause noticeable deterioration in battery life to my understanding.. well at least not for me (electrical experts please correct me if wrong)

 

2 months in and the battery is still good for me so far (fingers crossed)

 

But hey, at least it's easy to replace the battery since there are just loads of Samsung galaxy 3 batteries available out there.

 

Sorry for the OT. This is an interesting read :-

http://www.electronicproducts.com/Power_Products/Batteries_and_Fuel_Cells/Scientists_pinpoint_exact_reason_why_lithium_ion_batteries_degrade_over_time.aspx

 

I'd guess continual (trickle) charging is detrimental to the longevity of the battery in the long run too.

post #2 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post
 

Sorry for the OT. This is an interesting read :-


http://www.electronicproducts.com/Power_Products/Batteries_and_Fuel_Cells/Scientists_pinpoint_exact_reason_why_lithium_ion_batteries_degrade_over_time.aspx

 

I'd guess continual (trickle) charging is detrimental to the longevity of the battery in the long run too.

 

Or, maybe not....look what just popped up in the X5 thread that completely contradicts the "trickle charging is bad" theory:

 

Quoted from zilch0md:   Link to post (see #10357)

 

"As with all rechargeable batteries, the day will come when it will not take a charge that lasts as long as desired.

 

The trick to extending the useful life of the battery is to shallow-cycle it, rather than deep-cycling it.

 

In other words, put it back on the charger after each use, rather than running it all the way down between charges.  Better still, keep it plugged into external power while playing it, whenever possible.  (Protect the battery, so that you can enjoy it when you don't have access to external power.)

 

Table 2 compares the number of discharge/charge cycles Li-ion can deliver at various DoD levels before the battery capacity drops to 70 percent. The number of discharge cycles depends on many conditions and includes charge voltage, temperature and load currents. Not all Li-ion systems behave the same.

Depth of discharge

Discharge cycles

Table 2: Cycle life as a function of
depth of discharge

A partial discharge reduces stress and prolongs battery life. Elevated temperature and high currents also affect cycle life.

100% DoD

50% DoD

25% DoD

10% DoD

300 – 500

1,200 – 1,500

2,000 – 2,500

3,750 – 4,700

 

   Source:  http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

 

Notice that by repeatedly taking the battery down to only a 50% depth of discharge with each cycle, you get a lot more than twice as many cycles as had with a repeated 100% depth of discharge.  And if you repeatedly use only 25% depth of discharge, you get even more "free" cycles before the battery has to be replaced.

 

When convenient, I keep the X5 connected to an Anker Pro external battery during use:

 

 

This ensures that I'll have more than a couple of years service from the internal battery when I go lightweight - with just the X5 and headphones."

 

Mike


Edited by burtomr - 6/10/14 at 4:48pm
post #3 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by burtomr View Post

Wrong!  Talk about serendipity: look what just popped up in the X5 thread that completely contradicts the "trickle charging is bad" theory:

Quoted from zilch0md:   Link to post (see #10357)
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
"As with all rechargeable batteries, the day will come when it will not take a charge that lasts as long as desired.

The trick to extending the useful life of the battery is to shallow-cycle it, rather than deep-cycling it.

In other words, put it back on the charger after each use, rather than running it all the way down between charges.  Better still, keep it plugged into external power while playing it, whenever possible.  (Protect the battery, so that you can enjoy it when you don't have access to external power.)
   Source:  http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

Notice that by repeatedly taking the battery down to only a 50% depth of discharge with each cycle, you get a lot more than twice as many cycles as had with a repeated 100% depth of discharge.  And if you repeatedly use only 25% depth of discharge, you get even more "free" cycles before the battery has to be replaced.
When convenient, I keep the X5 connected to an Anker Pro external battery during use:




This ensures that I'll have more than a couple of years service from the internal battery when I go lightweight - with just the X5 and headphones.

Mike"

Very right, I have shallow charged my devices between 25-50% for years and the batteries have been lasting for a long time, I never deep charge batteries to the point of shutdown contrary to what I've heard. At home or work my players are wall charged in either use or rest. On the road is when the battery kicks in.
post #4 of 15

Re: "trickle charge"

 

The way I read this is that having any Li-Ion battery plugged in all the time (where it goes into "trickle charge" to keep it topped up) is bad for the battery. If I recall correctly, NiCd batteries should be fully emptied and recharged, so this is likely where the habit/information has originated from.

 

//TB

post #5 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by docBliny View Post
 

Re: "trickle charge"

 

The way I read this is that having any Li-Ion battery plugged in all the time (where it goes into "trickle charge" to keep it topped up) is bad for the battery.

 

How do you possibly conclude that...:confused:

 

The point of the post quoting Battery University, is the complete opposite: Keeping the NiCad Li-Ion 'topped up' is the way to increase longevity.....not using it down to needing a charge.


Edited by burtomr - 6/10/14 at 9:18am
post #6 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by burtomr View Post
 

 

How do you possibly conclude that...:confused:

 

The point of the post quoting Battery University, is the complete opposite: Keeping the NiCad 'topped up' is the way to increase longevity.....not using it down to needing a charge.

 

Sorry, I was a little unclear. I was making a differentiation between keeping a Lithium Ion battery always plugged in and possibly continually topping it off ("trickle charge" in quotes on purpose since the actual implementation will vary based on the device) versus draining the battery/doing a deep-cycle in a NiCd battery. From all I've read and experienced, Nickel Cadmium (NiCd) should be fully discharged before recharging and Lithium Ion (Li-Ion) last better with shallow charge cycles as the quoted article states. Regarding NiCd on Battery University:

 

"There is also the believed benefit of reduced “memory” effect, as the battery is being exercised while charging with pulses. [snip] While pulse charging may be valuable for NiCd and NiMH batteries, this type of charge does not apply to lead- and lithium-based systems."

 

...which is what I was really referring to (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_nickel_based_batteries).

 

However, I've seen several reasons why keeping Li-Ion's plugged in all the time is not necessarily the best option (none of which I can quote at the moment unfortunately, so take these however you want). First, there are big differences in the implementations of the charging and especially keeping the battery topped off; many of these are less than optimal. Some devices may heat up more when running and/or charging simultaneously and this is usually detrimental. Others won't work plugged in if the battery isn't connected which may imply that power is "pulled through" the battery (usually not good).

 

Sorry if my previous post was unclear on what I meant.

 

//TB

post #7 of 15

No problem. At first I didn't catch the difference between Ni-Cad and Li-Ion so your post had me curious.

 

My solution is to do a daily charge, if I used the device that day, with a low power charger like a .500 mA which doesn't produce any heat during the charge cycle. I would never advise using any sort of quick charger like a 2A or even the USB port on my laptop which is too powerful for daily recharging IMO.

post #8 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by burtomr View Post
 

No problem. At first I didn't catch the difference between Ni-Cad and Li-Ion so your post had me curious.

 

My solution is to do a daily charge, if I used the device that day, with a low power charger like a .500 mA which doesn't produce any heat during the charge cycle. I would never advise using any sort of quick charger like a 2A or even the USB port on my laptop which is too powerful for daily recharging IMO.

If the charging is regulated, which it is on the DX90, using a higher ampere source isn't going to hurt. I use a 2 amp all the time, no real heat and the DX50 and 90 work just fine with it. The item being charged, if it has the right kind of charging circuit, will take only what it needs. You could use a 10 amp if it is going into the right kind of circuit. Using a .5 amp will only take longer only because less amperes are being supplied but using a 2 amp source doesn't mean it is going to take the full 2 amps, just that it is available to give what the charging circuit wants/needs. 

post #9 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamato8 View Post
 

If the charging is regulated, which it is on the DX90, using a higher ampere source isn't going to hurt.

 

Maybe.  The regulation circuit may allow much higher amperage charging than .5mA...much higher. That's my point....I don't let it....I "trickle charge" all my gears. The theory is that a slower charge rate is easier on the battery. That's all.  Sure if you are in a hurry go for it but if time is not an issue then a low amperage charger is better...IMO...;)

post #10 of 15
Thread Starter 

I'm not certain if you guys actually read the link I put out but if you did, you should be able to catch that what was explained in that link and what burtonr is saying are quite different things - and I'd accept the blame that I wasn't clear on what I meant by "trickle charging".

 

The article is talking about use of the battery (during discharge & charge) but makes no claim on (deep/shallow) charging style, nor charging frequencies. It provides an explanation chemically what's going on inside the battery when it's used & charged.

 

The Battery University table provided by zilch0md forwarded to this thread by burtonr on the other hand is merely presenting observed data of shallow vs deep cycling,  but doesn't make an attempt to explain what's going on inside the battery.

 

Now about the misuse of terminology here when I used the word "trickle charging", I was thinking of a device plugged in charging and being used all the time. I wasn't referring to unplug & discharge, then plugging in to charge a top up. In my personal experience, continual use whilst trickle charging does degrade battery longevity as per the article - my DX100 was used as a burning station which would burn in headphone/earphones or external amps for weeks and months and at the end of it the DX100 battery life was down to 4.5 hrs. Some would explain heat is the cause and whilst observationally I may be inclined to agree but I'd very much like to see an explanation for that too.

 

Quote:
The point of the post quoting Battery University, is the complete opposite: Keeping the NiCad Li-Ion 'topped up' is the way to increase longevity.....not using it down to needing a charge.

 

Now I can possibly see how frequent trickle charging but not use during that period may slow down the rate of battery degradation but I'd have to disagree with burtonr's statement that it'll "increase longevity".

 

If my logic above is wrong, I'd be happy if someone could explain to me.

post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post
 

Now I can possibly see how frequent trickle charging but not use during that period may slow down the rate of battery degradation but I'd have to disagree with burtonr's statement that it'll "increase longevity".

 

If my logic above is wrong, I'd be happy if someone could explain to me.

 

Anak, my statement "increase longevity" was pulled from this table from zilch0md's post:

 

Table 2 compares the number of discharge/charge cycles Li-ion can deliver at various DoD levels before the battery capacity drops to 70 percent. The number of discharge cycles depends on many conditions and includes charge voltage, temperature and load currents. Not all Li-ion systems behave the same.

Depth of discharge

Discharge cycles

Table 2: Cycle life as a function of
depth of discharge

A partial discharge reduces stress and prolongs battery life. Elevated temperature and high currents also affect cycle life.

100% DoD

50% DoD

25% DoD

10% DoD

300 – 500

1,200 – 1,500

2,000 – 2,500

3,750 – 4,700

 

 

 

As you can see the "partial discharge"  i.e.: frequent topping-up vs. using it till almost dead, is way better for the battery since it maintains it's full charge capacity (70%) for many, many more cycles thus prolonging it's "useful longevity". Clear now?

post #12 of 15
Thread Starter 

Yes I know what you're saying but I'm going back to saying :-

"I'm not certain if you guys actually read the link I put out but if you did, you should be able to catch that what was explained in that link and what burtonr is saying are quite different things..."

post #13 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post


"I'm not certain if you guys actually read the link I put out but if you did, you should be able to catch that what was explained in that link and what burtonr is saying are quite different things..."

 

Oh that.....yes your Electronics Products article was interesting. Thank you for that, but they didn't provide any new info on how to increase battery longevity, just what happens that make 'em decrepitate (sorta).

 

I was trying to be helpful by calling attention to zilch0md's post which does provide actual info that us Li-Ion battery users can use to help 'em last longer.:D 

post #14 of 15
Thread Starter 

That was an interesting article and a recent discovery of why battery storage capacity degrade use after use (may it be discharging, or charging). Therefore the more the battery is used, the shorter capacity on next charge, and therefore overall longevity of the battery life shortens - but there is no discussion about rate of the longevity shortening. That's why I raised the continual trickle charging/use 'cos it means its storage capacity shortens. Here's a different paraphrased version of the same article from Gizmodo, this time: http://gizmodo.com/scientists-solved-the-mystery-of-why-rechargeable-batte-1583247838

 

As for the Battery University observiational test results however, I interpret it as how to "delay" or "slow down" the rate of which the battery storage deteriorates but as long as there's battery use, its storage capacity deteriorates nevertheless.

post #15 of 15
"Scientists pinpoint the creeping nanocystals behind lithium-ion battery degradation"
 
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