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How is "tube sound" even audible in modern headphone amps? - Page 20

post #286 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post
 


I didn't cite any case.  My final sentence was "these are not typical numbers for such equipment, but illustrate why it does matter".  So if you understand illustrate and that it was showing why all response issues combine regardless of the source you might have gotten it. 

 

Bottom line, tubes are far, far more likely to alter the response of what they are hooked up to play with than solid state.  If you like the result fine.  You could get much the same with a resistor in series for the output impedance bump, and a little EQ. 

 

What you find with many typical tube amps is flat enough response into a resistor at low power.  The treble tends to roll some with power increases or distortion increases or both.  Many tube amps spec some nice looking response without specifying power.  Some do specify the power and quote two responses.  Right off the top of my head Conrad Johnson amps often have something like 20-20khz at 1 watt or 10 watts +/- .3 db.  Then full rated power at something like 1.5% thd and bandwidth of 30-15 khz.  That is fairly typical conventional push-pull transformer coupled tube power amp behavior.  Maybe CJ amps are not well designed. 

 

CJ amps are well-designed, their original designers chose that sound because that is what they prefer. And they have many followers. I do have two all tube amps that I use with my HE-6, push-pull transformer coupled, an Audio Research D70 Mk II and a Copland CTA 504.

post #287 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post

The distortion/overloading and sustain sought by guitarists is not what is sought by a listener with audio gear. If you're really looking for this, you can get a pair of G3's and wire them into your listening chain. biggrin.gif  I doubt that this is what you'd really want,even if you could dial it down.
I believe that most of the tube amps that are favored produce distortion levels that are not humanly perceivable. On the other hand I doubt that audiophiles would favor the sound of a cheap distortion hobbled tube amp.


Your not really getting my point. Remember too this is just a guess and I don't know. I'm just using the guitar processed as an example. I fully think the same DSP effect could be used in ways that are very small and maybe could not make SS sound like tubes. But used in ways were it is almost not noticeable.


Still I think the recent posts in this thread have answered the effect of tubes in that it is a high end roll off. Yes, there may to no way to have a digital DSP sound exactly like tubes just like it is hard for CDs to sound like vinyl. Digital only can go so far in comparison to analogue sound.


My point is that guitarists are using these effects and are getting tube results. They get better and better. It is just a field if research that is not explored. I love the idea of folks popping in different operational amp chips to get a specific sound. I dream of a solid state amp that could have a solid state sound but at the click of a DSP entering the chain could replicate the sound of different famous tubes.

The point is that the effect could in the end actually make the single amp more widely interfacing with headphones. A cold headphone could be warmed up. A warm headphone could be cooled down.

And your right. The beginning process would be so very little that it could not be heard, then dialed in to another extent. There is a portion of the audio signal that is not able to be detected with equipment and not always heard in the observance. Yet it is still there and can effect the sound in positive ways. This is the difference in an SET 300b. It is totally clear sounding with a small distortion in an area. That is the magic.


The silky smooth warm euphoric tone of tubes with the perfect amount of distortion. The members here that believe that things not detected by equipment don't exist and that all amps sound exactly to same to them need to not even try understand this single post.
post #288 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redcarmoose View Post


Your not really getting my point. Remember too this is just a guess and I don't know. I'm just using the guitar processed as an example. I fully think the same DSP effect could be used in ways that are very small and maybe could not make SS sound like tubes. But used in ways were it is almost not noticeable.


Still I think the recent posts in this thread have answered the effect of tubes in that it is a high end roll off. Yes, there may to no way to have a digital DSP sound exactly like tubes just like it is hard for CDs to sound like vinyl. Digital only can go so far in comparison to analogue sound.


My point is that guitarists are using these effects and are getting tube results. They get better and better. It is just a field if research that is not explored. I love the idea of folks popping in different operational amp chips to get a specific sound. I dream of a solid state amp that could have a solid state sound but at the click of a DSP entering the chain could replicate the sound of different famous tubes.

The point is that the effect could in the end actually make the single amp more widely interfacing with headphones. A cold headphone could be warmed up. A warm headphone could be cooled down.

And your right. The beginning process would be so very little that it could not be heard, then dialed in to another extent. There is a portion of the audio signal that is not able to be detected with equipment and not always heard in the observance. Yet it is still there and can effect the sound in positive ways. This is the difference in an SET 300b. It is totally clear sounding with a small distortion in an area. That is the magic.


The silky smooth warm euphoric tone of tubes with the perfect amount of distortion. The members here that believe that things not detected by equipment don't exist and that all amps sound exactly to same to them need to not even try understand this single post.

This is not rocket science and there is nothing there that cannot be measured other than IMO an overactive imagination. We are not in search of the God Particle. The objectives of a performing musician and a listener are very different. If one wishes less treble, they should use EQ, not distortion. Distortion is not the answer, it changes what was recorded in IMO is a negative way as it changes the timbre and nature of instruments far beyond a little treble roll off in EQ.

post #289 of 366

Interestingly enough, my other tab other than headfi is the youtube documentary on M-theory and string theory....which I am supposed to watch hours ago but instead I'm all over head fi today, last nights watching of quantum theory just blows me away.  When I was in high school, it stopped at the big bang.  This dark matter thing is new to me...of course this renewed interest is because of my recent encounter with a young nuclear phycisist from the States.

post #290 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post

This is not rocket science and there is nothing there that cannot be measured other than IMO an overactive imagination. We are not in search of the God Particle. The objectives of a performing musician and a listener are very different. If one wishes less treble, they should use EQ, not distortion. Distortion is not the answer, it changes what was recorded in IMO is a negative way as it changes the timbre and nature of instruments far beyond a little treble roll off in EQ.


What you will find is that musical high end audio equipment actually has distortion designed in at the starting plan. For all of our wishes of transparency it is this color that high end audio equipment manufactures put in to separate their equipment from the pack. This distortion is the wow factor. The great delude here is everyone is listing to color but telling themselves it is ruler flat.


A Rega DAC may be actually getting it's sound by a small reverb placed into the signal chain. This information is not advertised as folks think they are buying unadulterated flat frequency response equipment.

There does not exist a flat headphone, amp or source. It is nice to think so though.wink.gif
Edited by Redcarmoose - 7/6/14 at 8:00pm
post #291 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redcarmoose View Post


What you will find is that musical high end audio equipment actually has distortion designed in at the starting plan. For all of our wishes of transparency it is this color that high end audio equipment manufactures put in to separate their equipment from the pack. This distortion is the wow factor. The great delude here is everyone is listing to color but telling themselves it is ruler flat.


A Rega DAC may be actually getting it's sound by a small reverb placed into the signal chain. This information is not advertised as folks think they are buying unadulterated flat frequency response equipment.

There does not exist a flat headphone, amp or source. It is nice to think so though.wink.gif

Flat amps yes, flat headphone's not possible. So you think the Rega DAC has a reverb spring or a digital delayline with feedback in the design? High end tube amps list distortion levels too low for us to appreciate.

post #292 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redcarmoose View Post

There does not exist a flat headphone, amp or source. It is nice to think so though.wink.gif

 

That's why you equalize.

post #293 of 366

Well apparently, the whole frekin unverse is some kinda miniscule wave which we are yet to comprehend.  Could it be that if we crack the waves in this hobby, we would have seen god?  The whole universe is some kinda game of musical chairs.

 

As always, best to ignore the troll....I better unsubscribe before I take this all the way to god...

post #294 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
 

Well apparently, the whole frekin unverse is some kinda miniscule wave which we are yet to comprehend.  Could it be that if we crack the waves in this hobby, we would have seen god?  The whole universe is some kinda game of musical chairs.

 

As always, best to ignore the troll....I better unsubscribe before I take this all the way to god...

Perhaps the Bunyip has the answer.

post #295 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redcarmoose View Post

What you will find is that musical high end audio equipment actually has distortion designed in at the starting plan. For all of our wishes of transparency it is this color that high end audio equipment manufactures put in to separate their equipment from the pack. This distortion is the wow factor. The great delude here is everyone is listing to color but telling themselves it is ruler flat.

and that's exactly why we of the SS amp Illuminati very secret society(4 members and a cat), usually have little to no respect for tube amps with audible distortions or colored signature. because calling something hifi when its willingly distorting the original signal is a contradiction.

super crispy details and dead flat signature just aren't for everybody and a distorted or at least colored amp might be the answer for some people. but let's just be more honest about what sound we like.

we audiophile people have a very flexible definition of hifi/neutral/natural. so that we can play pretend we like the clean flat hifi sound and feel good about it, while not actually having to listen to it. it's some kind of social make up.

 

but you're wrong about flat amps and sources. there are a lot of those available.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
 

Well apparently, the whole frekin unverse is some kinda miniscule wave which we are yet to comprehend.  Could it be that if we crack the waves in this hobby, we would have seen god?  The whole universe is some kinda game of musical chairs.

 

As always, best to ignore the troll....I better unsubscribe before I take this all the way to god...

 

post #296 of 366
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redcarmoose View Post

Yes, there may to no way to have a digital DSP sound exactly like tubes just like it is hard for CDs to sound like vinyl.

No, it's not hard as long as CD is mastered equally well.
post #297 of 366

In the pro audio world one can get digital emulations of analog sound.  Said by many to be exceptionally accurate vs the real piece of equipment.

 

http://www.uaudio.com/uad-plug-ins.html

 

Here is a list of what is available.

 

http://www.uaudio.com/store.html

post #298 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by madwolfa View Post


No, it's not hard as long as CD is mastered equally well.

 

but you also have to add in Vinyls's limitations of which noise (many sources) is the most intrusive especially for headphone listening

post #299 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

Perhaps the Bunyip has the answer.


 No no no.  You have it all wrong.  I need to consult The Rainbow Serpent.

post #300 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
 


 No no no.  You have it all wrong.  I need to consult The Rainbow Serpent.

You might consider relocating to Ayers Rock/Uluru for some dream time with your headphones. Should be quiet at night once the tourists leave.

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