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How is "tube sound" even audible in modern headphone amps? - Page 11

post #151 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironathetin View Post
 

Even YOU? Who would have thought that?

 

If you want my opinion (I know you don't bother), A/B is great. Compare Picasso against Matisse and you may find out, what painting looks best to you.

 

Picasso and Matisse are demonstrably different. Amplifiers that have achieved audible transparency are demonstrably the same. Comparing two identical things and determining them to be identical does not require any subjective interpretation. It either is, or it isn't.

 

As I said, I test every piece of equipment that I buy. Over the past thirty years, I've tested every amp I've owned, and I've even compared them to my brother's system. Back in the 70s, my family had a Heathkit amp that hissed like a radiator. But since the late 70s, I haven't run across a single amp that sounds different. I've compared Sanyo A line, McIntosh, Sony and Yamaha. All were audibly identical. What went in was what came out the same except louder. That's exactly what I want in an amp, and doing a comparison test to determine that isn't at all subjective. All it takes is a switch box. (Yes, the amount of time between samples matters. Audio memory for two similar sounds lasts no more than three seconds. A gap larger than that and you are inviting bias into your results.)

post #152 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironathetin View Post
 

Even YOU? Who would have thought that?

 

If you want my opinion (I know you don't bother), A/B is great. Compare Picasso against Matisse and you may find out, what painting looks best to you.

I usually listen to instruments. We have several guitars and a piano at home. Very good orchestras and concert halls in town. That allows a meaningful comparison. Of course no switch within seconds, but that's life.

In the end, linear or not does not count. What counts is, if you think your system sounds good. Totally subjective.

Compare your system to another system instead to real instruments and you have a free floating reference.

There's a difference trying to make such a point by comparing paintings by different artists or different musical instruments vs. comparing amps. An ideal amp is a wire with gain, what comes in goes out, only stronger, nothing else. Due to the emotional aspects of this rivalry it is always a controversial topic. I would have no problem with either technology as long as it met my criteria - clean and clear - and in that case, to me, they would sound the same. I would prefer the smaller and more reliable SS product, but if I had such a good tube amp I wouldn't fall out of bed hit my head in despair. Personally I prefer SS as one can achieve the desired results for a more reasonable price and better reliability.


Edited by StanD - 6/22/14 at 2:28pm
post #153 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

 Personally I prefer SS as one can achieve the desired results for a more reasonable price and better reliability.

 

And if the 'reasonable price and reliability'  were to change, I would hop aboard the tube train (and I imagine most others here would as well)

 

Cheers

post #154 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by ab initio View Post
 

 

And if the 'reasonable price and reliability'  were to change, I would hop aboard the tube train (and I imagine most others here would as well)

 

Cheers

Sounds about right. one of  my SS amps is Class A and doesn't have a green rating, nice and warm in the winter. SS amps are most often smaller, lighter and most often operate cooler.

I'm still waiting for a portable rechargeable battery operated tube amp that I can stuff in my pocket.

post #155 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post

I'm still waiting for a portable rechargeable battery operated tube amp that I can stuff in my pocket.
Like the Elekit TU-HP01, the ALO Continental, Miu Audio IH2 and a half a dozen others...

Or just go for the Analog Squared Paper TUR-06. biggrin.gif
post #156 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

I'm still waiting for a portable rechargeable battery operated tube amp that I can stuff in my pocket.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollDragon View Post


Like the Elekit TU-HP01, the ALO Continental, Miu Audio IH2 and a half a dozen others...

Or just go for the Analog Squared Paper TUR-06. biggrin.gif

Hold it the first one is  hybrid, Oops the second one as well, third one - I see a picture of the PC with ICs on it, now for the last one - doh another hybrid. Sorry no sale. :rolleyes:

post #157 of 370
Well then it will be a loooong wait for a pocket sized OTL tube amp...
post #158 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by eugenius View Post
 

No amp is the same as the next ... having said that, most tube amps don't have anywhere near those measurements and that's by design.

 

As for those who do, my guess is: see tube, hear tube.

like legit, see and hear for tubes sound like tubes 

post #159 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

Sounds about right. one of  my SS amps is Class A and doesn't have a green rating, nice and warm in the winter. SS amps are most often smaller, lighter and most often operate cooler.

I'm still waiting for a portable rechargeable battery operated tube amp that I can stuff in my pocket.


Just need to get someone making them with Nuvistor tubes. You'll be limited to NOS supplies as no one makes them now to my knowledge.  They are small, run cooler and last much longer.  Just the ticket.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuvistor

 

http://www.r-type.org/articles/art-150.htm

post #160 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post
 


Just need to get someone making them with Nuvistor tubes. You'll be limited to NOS supplies as no one makes them now to my knowledge.  They are small, run cooler and last much longer.  Just the ticket.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuvistor

 

http://www.r-type.org/articles/art-150.htm

They won't be driving difficult headphones or low impedance current hogs. Just get a good portable SS amp and call it a day. They are available today.

post #161 of 370

OK, this one freaks me out:

 

The case of the missing fundamental

 

Download it, play it and watch a spectrum analyser.  Clearly one hears what cannot be measured.

 

Amps reportedly sounding warm or bright despite absolutely flat measurements.  Harmonics, it can be nothing else.

 

Edit: And it is all in the imagination, it is not real.


Edited by SP Wild - 6/23/14 at 4:37am
post #162 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
 

OK, this one freaks me out:

 

The case of the missing fundamental

 

Download it, play it and watch a spectrum analyser.  Clearly one hears what cannot be measured.

 

Amps reportedly sounding warm or bright despite absolutely flat measurements.  Harmonics, it can be nothing else.

 

Edit: And it is all in the imagination, it is not real.


you're mostly right, even if I fail to see what that track has to do about it.

it's pretty obvious when you know how a frequency response graph is done. they play one frequency, measure that frequency(and not the others), go to the next one... end up making a graph of all the points. so a FR graph give zero information about harmonic or intermodulation distortions. it's just one of the measurements, not the ID of an amp.

people decided wrongly on their own that if 2 stuff are measured to have flat FR they should sound the same. they will only if all the distortion values are below audible levels(and if the impedance is the same depending on the headphone). else it's a given that they will not sound flat, because they will not be flat. flat+shiiiiiiiit≠flat

 

wrong conclusion from shortcut interpretations about incomplete measurements, don't really mean that there is a limit to our ability to measure sound or know if something will sound flat.

 

back to the posted track, perception tricks and interpretation from our brain are very real(we pretty much spend our days saying just that in sound science). but if 2 amps output the same signal(and I mean same signal not just same signature on a FR graph), then a person will hear the same thing and perceive the same thing. real, or interpreted by our brain, the process will activate both times giving the listener the same experience. so if 2amps sound the same, the way our brain works will not change that fact and an ABx will result in a 50/50.

only some bias are removed by a an abx or a blind test, not the way our brain decides to mess up what it receives.

post #163 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by castleofargh View Post
 


you're mostly right, even if I fail to see what that track has to do about it.

it's pretty obvious when you know how a frequency response graph is done. they play one frequency, measure that frequency(and not the others), go to the next one... end up making a graph of all the points. so a FR graph give zero information about harmonic or intermodulation distortions. it's just one of the measurements, not the ID of an amp.

people decided wrongly on their own that if 2 stuff are measured to have flat FR they should sound the same. they will only if all the distortion values are below audible levels(and if the impedance is the same depending on the headphone). else it's a given that they will not sound flat, because they will not be flat. flat+shiiiiiiiit≠flat

 

wrong conclusion from shortcut interpretations about incomplete measurements, don't really mean that there is a limit to our ability to measure sound or know if something will sound flat.

 

back to the posted track, perception tricks and interpretation from our brain are very real(we pretty much spend our days saying just that in sound science). but if 2 amps output the same signal(and I mean same signal not just same signature on a FR graph), then a person will hear the same thing and perceive the same thing. real, or interpreted by our brain, the process will activate both times giving the listener the same experience. so if 2amps sound the same, the way our brain works will not change that fact and an ABx will result in a 50/50.

only some bias are removed by a an abx or a blind test, not the way our brain decides to mess up what it receives.

 

I probably posted this in the wrong thread.  Sorry for the OT.  Carry on.

post #164 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
 

OK, this one freaks me out:

 

The case of the missing fundamental

 

Download it, play it and watch a spectrum analyser.  Clearly one hears what cannot be measured.

 

Amps reportedly sounding warm or bright despite absolutely flat measurements.  Harmonics, it can be nothing else.

 

Edit: And it is all in the imagination, it is not real.

here you go: Missing fundamental

 

Cheers

post #165 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
 

OK, this one freaks me out:

 

The case of the missing fundamental

 

Download it, play it and watch a spectrum analyser.  Clearly one hears what cannot be measured.

 

Amps reportedly sounding warm or bright despite absolutely flat measurements.  Harmonics, it can be nothing else.

 

Edit: And it is all in the imagination, it is not real.

I'm scratching my head here - the chord (400+600+1kHz) doesn't sound at all like 200Hz to me. It sounds like a blend of the three previous tones. Also, I don't see how this has anything to do with amps - if anything, this shows that the ear and brain can "hear" many things that aren't really there, and the measurements can be trusted far more than the ear can.

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