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post #136 of 366

Anybody know what tube amp(not hybrid) has the lowest distortion output?  I'm curious if the tube amp possibly has low distortion, how it would sound in comparison to higher distortion would?  Would the higher distortion one provide more of that warm tube like sound?

 

It would also be nice to test it out with HD800 as it's been known as treble happy phones that people resort to tubes to possibly bring warmth or cut off the treble.  

post #137 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollDragon View Post
 

Adapted a Raytheon JAN 6832 from '57 into an octal adapter...

 

I just want to know how they squeeze all that luscious tube sound into such a small tube? :D

Well, don't know how luscious they are, but you have heard of Nuvistors haven't you?  Had a phono pre-amp with them at one time.

post #138 of 366

THD, noise, phase, FR, IMD, clipping levels ....  we end up with too many factors to really know what is what. and even then, measurements are made from simple samples, with music it's bound to be worst.

and they all change depending on what you feed the amp with, what headphone or speaker is plugged, and also how loud you're listening.

add to all this a human weirdo and only a blind test can really tell anything meaningfull for ourself. unless you can do measurements on your own system. I don't have a clue how to do that and what I would need to do so(also it's not like I have hundreds of amps at home, I have 2 and they sound identical). but blind tests and AB tests are only if people actually want to know, headfi not being the number one cheerleader for proper comparisons(to say the least) and still very much popular.

 

 

happiness over truth, hard choice when music is first and foremost for fun. I know I would take girls and money, but there is no pill for that.

 

also I suspect tube amp manufacturers to often work toward the "tube sound" on purpose even if that means lesser fidelity. because someone will buy a tube amp expecting to hear a tube amp.

post #139 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironathetin View Post
 


Thanks, interesting.

I picked my amp because of the qualities I reported. I did not know what to expect from a tube amp compared to a solid state amp. So I guess, there is little possibility that the sound is imagined.

 

Do you have good links to research results?

There's much research on "Just detectable distortion ." The below link has some interesting info and can point to other research. You will notice that the JDD levels are far above what any decent amp produces, which IMO supports our over imaginative perceptions, expectation bias. You can experiment yourself with an A/B switch and carefully volume matching the amps, playing them through the switch to one pair of headphones. I've done that and you really can't hear anything different. Where possibilities exist are IMD (Intermodulation Distortion) and TIMD (Transient) at higher levels of volume. Spec's are usually given under a fixed set of conditions that do not encompass transient conditions. IMO, most modern amps of decent design are actually very good. Yes you can always find a piece of junk, however, most amps exceed their owner's ability to perceive even though we may not like to admit this.

http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/human-hearing-distortion-audibility-part-3

post #140 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 

Anybody know what tube amp(not hybrid) has the lowest distortion output?  I'm curious if the tube amp possibly has low distortion, how it would sound in comparison to higher distortion would?  Would the higher distortion one provide more of that warm tube like sound?

 

It would also be nice to test it out with HD800 as it's been known as treble happy phones that people resort to tubes to possibly bring warmth or cut off the treble.  

Why not try EQ? That way you don't have to introduce something that is not there (Even Order Harmonic Distortion) as an attempt to reign in the treble that may bother you.

post #141 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

Why not try EQ? That way you don't have to introduce something that is not there (Even Order Harmonic Distortion) as an attempt to reign in the treble that may bother you.

Quite true.  If you can know where the distortion is, you and EQ it out.


Edited by SilverEars - 6/22/14 at 10:13am
post #142 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 

Quite true.  If you can know where the distortion is, you and EQ it out.

Excessive treble is an FR related matter, not distortion as in THD or IM.

post #143 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post

Well, don't know how luscious they are, but you have heard of Nuvistors haven't you?  Had a phono pre-amp with them at one time.
Nice!
I will have to find me a pair of 6CW4's and 7895's to play with... A few Fetrons would be great as well but they are a little scarce.
post #144 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironathetin View Post
 

My tube amp perhaps does sound a bit tubey and I like it that way, because it emphasizes space and makes bass sound closer to what I hear in a concert. But, why indeed is this audible with 0.04%thd?

 

Expectation bias. Distortion that low is completely inaudible. You would certainly be just as happy with a solid state amp if it had a fancy box with tubes that lit up coming out of it. At headfi, expectation bias is the most important spec sometimes.

post #145 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironathetin View Post
 

I picked my amp because of the qualities I reported. I did not know what to expect from a tube amp compared to a solid state amp. So I guess, there is little possibility that the sound is imagined.

 

"I'm going to take my tube amp out of the box... Hey! cool! Look, you can see the tubes! Let's plug it in. They light up! Let's turn it on and play Pink Floyd with the lights out and watch the tubes glow... It looks like something that belongs to a mad scientist!"

 

Boom. Expectation bias.

post #146 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

 

"I'm going to take my tube amp out of the box... Hey! cool! Look, you can see the tubes! Let's plug it in. They light up! Let's turn it on and play Pink Floyd with the lights out and watch the tubes glow... It looks like something that belongs to a mad scientist!"

 

Boom. Expectation bias.


you may think I am an idiot, but I am well aware of those psychological tricks. What makes you so sure that you don't fall for them, because you seem so convinced that your solid state stuff is the real thing and others are dumb?

I wasn't biased at all when I bought my amps. I got what I thought could be good amps, listened to them and sorted the bad ones out. I even fought with me because here I had the trouble of tubes with a limited lifetime, that even tempt to exchange them and check for even better sound vs. a simple quadratic box with one switch and a volume knob. But there was no doubt, the potentially troublesome tube amps sounded better to me.

 

But we know that is all about personal preference. You like the linear thin an tinny sound, I like the full bassy and spacy sound. And both is just created in our minds. God knows, if anyone hears it the same way as we do.

God bless you.


Edited by mironathetin - 6/22/14 at 12:52pm
post #147 of 366

I liked your comment better before you edited it. I figured you could answer that question better than I could.

 

Everyone is subject to expectation bias, even me. The difference is, I realize my human limitations and take steps to eliminate bias from how I decide about stereo components. I focus on sound. Every piece of equipment I buy goes through a quick level matched direct A/B comparison. I want to know *exactly* what the difference is, not what I *think* the difference is. For me, an amp that isn't audibly transparent, meaning it sounds exactly like every other good amp, goes back in the box and gets returned. I don't want my amp to have a "sound". I prefer natural uncolored sound.

 

And I'm sure you see the irony in arguing about how the look of the glowing tubes didn't affect your decision making process while your avatar has a beautiful product shot of sexy tubes lined up like Christmas lights...


Edited by bigshot - 6/22/14 at 12:58pm
post #148 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironathetin View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

 

"I'm going to take my tube amp out of the box... Hey! cool! Look, you can see the tubes! Let's plug it in. They light up! Let's turn it on and play Pink Floyd with the lights out and watch the tubes glow... It looks like something that belongs to a mad scientist!"

 

Boom. Expectation bias.


you think I am an idiot?


it has nothing to do with being an idiot. when you see 3D volumes in a trompe l'oeil painting you're not an idiot our brain is easily fooled. you'll often agree with someone you appreciate, and will find stupid someone that you dislike. bias is the norm, we're victim of it all the time. for audio, taking that possibility into account is important as the potential is always here.

and reading bigshot made me shout "it's alive!!!" in front on my computer, like an idiot ^_^.

post #149 of 366

post #150 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

 

Everyone is subject to expectation bias, even me.

 

Even YOU? Who would have thought that?

 

If you want my opinion (I know you don't bother), A/B is great. Compare Picasso against Matisse and you may find out, what painting looks best to you.

I usually listen to instruments. We have several guitars and a piano at home. Very good orchestras and concert halls in town. That allows a meaningful comparison. Of course no switch within seconds, but that's life.

In the end, linear or not does not count. What counts is, if you think your system sounds good. Totally subjective.

Compare your system to another system instead to real instruments and you have a free floating reference.

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