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IEM: Why bother going universals when you can go Customs? - Page 4

post #46 of 57

man, all you care is measurement? you hear with eyes or with your ears?

 

just value it based on what you hear. measurements are just complement to what you hear.

 

 

based on experience. there's no single UIEM that can match CIEM sq wise.

 

its because CIEM simply  designed to allow deep insertion and full isolation. therefore better bass extension and treble extension. and that's also what i experienced from reshelling a UIEM into a CIEM.

post #47 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yugopotamia View Post

man, all you care is measurement? you hear with eyes or with your ears?

just value it based on what you hear. measurements are just complement to what you hear.


based on experience. there's no single UIEM that can match CIEM sq wise.

its because CIEM simply  designed to allow deep insertion and full isolation. therefore better bass extension and treble extension. and that's also what i experienced from reshelling a UIEM into a CIEM.

Very interesting! Which iem?? Pics please of ur reshelled creation? Howd else did it change? Any trade off since reshelling it? Cause the housing is different =diff sound
post #48 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom22 View Post


Very interesting! Which iem?? Pics please of ur reshelled creation? Howd else did it change? Any trade off since reshelling it? Cause the housing is different =diff sound


hi Tom. you can see at:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/633511/pictures-of-your-portable-rig-part-xvi/11730#post_10521408

 

it is a tf10. and i use UM service for reshell. the trade off is you can't poison other people as with universal does. :bigsmile_face:

 

for the sound, there's already a lot of people gave impressions. you can find it in this thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/443197/unique-melody-remold-appreciation-and-impressions-thread

post #49 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmiller511 View Post
 

 

This is something I did not know.  Still, I can't see that happening even if it is possible.  I'm sure it does, but buying someone else's customs and having them reworked is just something I would not do.

I have just been reading this thread - a lot of misconceptions about CIEMs, like every one made gets sent back for refits - I have had 5 over the years and no refits - the isolation in better than any universal I've owned.  The length of time I can wear a custom has to be ten times a universal which always seems to be trying to make its way out of my ear. The statement I quoted above is just a combination of fear and ignorance (in a nice way) - all my customs have been reshells - and they work like new. They were pretty damned reasonable price wise. One of my favorite posts earlier is the one where a member states: (discounting multiple armature CIEMs) and I'm paraphrasing ".. that the ER4PT sounds better than any custom - as long as as you don't mind the high/low frequency roll off." So in other words, it's better as long as you prefer lesser sound reproduction. Now I am not saying that customs are the end-all, and they are for everyone - but I find they are the best for me. And I am not spending 1K a shot - my TF10 reshells cost about $250 - that's value. I have always liked the sound of the TF10 - fun for rock and roll - but the ergonomics SUCK - customized, I don't know they are there - and the recessed mids come out to play. The W4 is pretty well slammed in this thread as well - maybe because it doesn't have any glaring faults or strengths other than being a very competent IEM, there isn't anything to hang your hat on - but they reproduce bass down to 10hz and have no significant frequency drop offs - how do I know? Frequency sweeps - they can be googled.  

 

The Heir 3A and AI - which seems to be the whipping boy of this thread does not represent the entire CIEM business - There are TOTL dynamics and extremely coherent multi-BA's - there are great universals out there (hell I made a custom into one!) Do your research - I wouldn't change a thing - and it isn't new toy syndrome - if they sounded like crap, I'd take my lumps and move on - but there is nothing like a perfectly fitted coherent custom. Sorry I can't let you hear them.

post #50 of 57

So take a company like Shure, selling an IEM for $1000 - a standard product, made using their well-established manufacturing process, and benefitting from their economies of scale.

 

And take a small CIEM brand, selling a CIEM through retailers for the same price.   They dont have the same economies of scale.  Custom one-off work and great complexity means even more manufacturing costs.

 

So which one is likely to offer better value for money?      Now, if you want the one-off factor and/or like the sound palette, that's one thing.   But i do believe that in general, UIEMs tend to offer better value-for-money than CIEMs - more of your purchase price goes towards R&D and materials, less towards manufacturing overhead.

 

Yes, you can argue that a small CIEM manufacturer has miraculously discovered a secret tecnnique that lets them leapfrog the R&D of massive companies like Shure and Sennheiser.  Yes, you can argue that the big guys are shamelessly price-gouging.   Depends what you believe.

post #51 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by yugopotamia View Post
 

its because CIEM simply  designed to allow deep insertion and full isolation. therefore better bass extension and treble extension. and that's also what i experienced from reshelling a UIEM into a CIEM.

 

Are there any studies that show deeper insertion equals to better bass & treble?   I mean, the drivers are at the same location, so obviously shape and materials of the shell play a role.   I could also see the sound getting all sort of weird artefacts due to reflection off the shell.

post #52 of 57

Alot of the SQ assertions made about custome vs universals are complete speculation. Unless you own a universal and a custom version of exactlty the same product you are not any a position to say conclusively that customs sound better.

post #53 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkalia View Post
 

 

Are there any studies that show deeper insertion equals to better bass & treble?   I mean, the drivers are at the same location, so obviously shape and materials of the shell play a role.   I could also see the sound getting all sort of weird artefacts due to reflection off the shell.

go read some rin choi measurement. what makes the bass better is the better seal.

also, BA don't suffer from reflection and stuff. because the sound is coming out from the tube. it means zero reverb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauntere View Post
 

Alot of the SQ assertions made about custome vs universals are complete speculation. Unless you own a universal and a custom version of exactlty the same product you are not any a position to say conclusively that customs sound better.

yesterday, i compare head 2 head universal tf10 vs my custom tf10. with exact same source, exact same cable.

 

also to note here: UM reshell my tf10 with no change in tuning. meaning exact same crossover and exact same driver as the universal. the only thing different is driver placement because this is going custom.

 

my impressions: you get a lot more in custom form and it is optimized. the overall SQ is definitely step ahead from the universal version. if you don't believe, go compare it yourself.

the bass is improved and getting deeper while maintain the good extension.

the midrange seems to be more pronounced

the treble is the big thing here. I feel more extension from going custom. and the harshness that universal tf10 have seems decreased.. but its still there ( probably because tf10 high driver sucks ). and one thing to note, it seems the custom version is more airy.

 

so there you go.

post #54 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkalia View Post
 

 

 

Yes, you can argue that a small CIEM manufacturer has miraculously discovered a secret tecnnique that lets them leapfrog the R&D of massive companies like Shure and Sennheiser.  Yes, you can argue that the big guys are shamelessly price-gouging.   Depends what you believe.

A little passive aggressive there - I don't recall stating that CIEM manufacturers did anything miraculous - I also never mentioned that Shure and Sennheiser price gouged - these are your words. Is that what you believe? 

 

Kia makes a real nice car - lots of technology - anti-lock brakes - traction control - can go fast on the highway without issue. But a lot of safety and handling technologies came from small racing shops - racing improves the breed - There is often someone with a singular vision that leads - and the large companies pick and choose what they think works. Did multiple armature headphones spring from Universals? Or customs? I'd be interested to know. But saying that, I think there is room for both without belittling one or the other.

post #55 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivabign View Post

A little passive aggressive there - I don't recall stating that CIEM manufacturers did anything miraculous - I also never mentioned that Shure and Sennheiser price gouged - these are your words. Is that what you believe? 

I have no idea what makes you think I was being passive aggressive or targeting anything you said in particular. The fact that it came immediately after your post is pure happenstance, nothing else.

My point there was simply that if someone believes differently, then they believe differently and there is no point arguing, as this is just a matter of opinion.
Quote:
Kia makes a real nice car - lots of technology - anti-lock brakes - traction control - can go fast on the highway without issue. But a lot of safety and handling technologies came from small racing shops - racing improves the breed - There is often someone with a singular vision that leads - and the large companies pick and choose what they think works. Did multiple armature headphones spring from Universals? Or customs? I'd be interested to know. But saying that, I think there is room for both without belittling one or the other.

Who is belittling? All I am saying is that you pay a premium for custom work and therefore all things being equal, a $1000 standard product from a large manufacturer is likely to be better value for money.

No offence but you are ascribing far too much in the way of emotion and motives into what I wrote.
Edited by vkalia - 5/19/14 at 1:34am
post #56 of 57
Imo, go universal until you find something you like then reshell it. Customs are better for the longhaul.
post #57 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yugopotamia View Post

go read some rin choi measurement. what makes the bass better is the better seal.
also, BA don't suffer from reflection and stuff. because the sound is coming out from the tube. it means zero reverb.
yesterday, i compare head 2 head universal tf10 vs my custom tf10. with exact same source, exact same cable.

also to note here: UM reshell my tf10 with no change in tuning. meaning exact same crossover and exact same driver as the universal. the only thing different is driver placement because this is going custom.

my impressions: you get a lot more in custom form and it is optimized. the overall SQ is definitely step ahead from the universal version. if you don't believe, go compare it yourself.
the bass is improved and getting deeper while maintain the good extension.
the midrange seems to be more pronounced
the treble is the big thing here. I feel more extension from going custom. and the harshness that universal tf10 have seems decreased.. but its still there ( probably because tf10 high driver sucks ). and one thing to note, it seems the custom version is more airy.

so there you go.

Bas dont suffer reverb from the housif change? I alwayd thought it was the same as dynamics. Like in a headphone if u change the housing or even the earpads. U change the sound, i always wondered y people reshell their universals into customs.


I thought it was just a load of ___ no offence. I see some reshelling services on ebay for iems like shure se215 and the like, basically anything for 100$. But if changing the housing doesnt affect the original sound sig thats really cool.

Then again i only own dynamics. Haha
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