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Feature suggestions for X7 flagship DAP - Page 3

post #31 of 68

As usual, sorry for my English. If you find mistakes or nonsenses in my post, feel free to send me a "patch" on mp, I'll correct my post.

 

Based on the informations provided by James, eg Android and big touchscreen (damn' I was going to ask to get rid of those craps), let's go to (the beach?) :

 

For the size, ergonomy and the OS

  • Reduce the size to match the Fiio X5's one for the lenght and width ;
  • 20mm for the height seems big enough ;
  • Don't make the touchscreen too big, 4" seems the maxmim limit we can handle for this size (3,5" would be perfect) ;
  • You want Android, OK. Make it rootable so we can optmize quickly and easly your DAP ;
  • You want to make your app', OK. Bring something new and fresh to your customers. We don't want to see another music app who don't change anything for us. Look on what others apps are weak and make it happen ; (One nice thing I want to see : The possibilty to switch folder not only files)
  • Android means you have to handle Wi-Fi. It will take down the battery and we can say bye bye to a decent battery life. Handle that nicely ;
  • Android means you gonna maybe have to handle Bluetooth too. Don't take a weak bluetooth module, take something recent ;
  • Don't try to customize Android to make it prettier or anything, the stock version is good and your gonna lose your time to tweak it ;
  • Give us physical buttons. Take inspiration from Sony and the F-886 or the ZX-1 ;
  • Android means that you can give us Audio OTG throught the micro-USB port. Make it happen with the lib-audio librairy ;
  • LO, HO and Coax Out would be nice as in others Fiio DAP ; I don't see balanced output like a killer feature but why not.
  • A battery life of 10h - 12h with 16/44.1 files.
  • No interne memory for the users and everything on an SD cart, feels good for me.

 

For the DAC parts

  • Whatever you choose, don't make dual dac. Take a good chip with a low power consumption or lower than most of dual dac, your big touchscreen will eat the battery life don't add unnecessery take down of it. ESS, TI, CS, Wolfson, take what you good with. You're making a DAP not a nuclear plant so be clever and your choice some chips consume more power that others.

 

That part seems short but all I expect from Fiio is to stay Fiio. Don't run after the hype, don't make insane choices. My point of view is : If you would make a DAP for sound-only purist, you'll not choose Android instead of a home firmware. If Fiio choose Android, it is to anwser to a larger panel of users who look for connectivity, a half-PMP more than a DAP. That's your choice but Fiio have to be consistent with it (Do not make a DX-100 bis, please).

 

For the Amp parts

  • Fiio always makes powerfull amp. Go that way. If your amp can reach the SQ of an O2 to my ears, it would be perfect for me. For the moment, I never met a DAP with an amp who could reach the O2 SQ. I'm biaised mostly because I liked a lot that amp but I can dream a little bit here :) ;
  • Go to a colorless signature with good dynamic that all I want ;
  • Keep the output impedance less than 1 Ohm ;
  • No hiss, noise. Black background ;

 

All my demands are based on the fact that making an Android device is a trade-off and I don't expect to see *my* perfect DAP on this basis. My perfect DAP would look like the Fiio X3, an ESS9018-K2M alone for the DAC chip and an O2-like for the amp. I'm not a touchscreen/android guy when it comes to DAP. Just to explain the biais in my demands.

post #32 of 68

You say balanced output is not a killer but why not? Then you say don't go for dual dac. Well without dual dac, they can't put balanced output section in it.

 

Android doesn't have to mean that they will have to handle with useless things.

 

If they bring something decent as a player, nobody needs stupid players from Play Store. Also Bluetooth is one of the most stupid thing ever happened to dap world. Completely useless.

 

For the who uses Bluetooth in AK120 or something, well stick to it then. We want a DAP, not a fancy toy with features that actually we don't need.

 

As for the screen size, I agree with you. Screen shouldn't be huge and battery consuming. Something battery efficient and easy to handle with 1 hand is important.

 

USB Audio Output would be great option as a Digital Out. You can connect it to many things like CLAB Theorem 720, CEntrance Hifi M8 etc. Line out is a must too.

 

While I prefer to have a dap that can stay as a standalone player, when we talk about flagship and high price, those features might come handy.

post #33 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmberOzL View Post  Well without dual dac, they can't put balanced output section in it.

 

Actually, balanced output can be done from either a single ES9018S or a single ES9018K2M. Both have differential outputs. The only advantage to dual DACs is potentially greater SNR performance and greater crosstalk tweakability (though it might not actually be better than single).

post #34 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post
 

 

Actually, balanced output can be done from either a single ES9018S or a single ES9018K2M. Both have differential outputs. The only advantage to dual DACs is potentially greater SNR performance and greater crosstalk tweakability (though it might not actually be better than single).


Oh I didn't know about that, sorry for my wrong knowledge. I learned something new today youppee :happy_face1:

post #35 of 68

I'm talking for a balanced headphone output here.

Like I say for balanced output : why not but it is'nt a feature killer for me because you face two problems : Too much power and so volume if the device handles badly (Steps too big between them) and the necessity to change your iem/headphone cable or recable completly your headphone. And that could be a nightmare to do for some headphones (with cable in only one side), you have to solder new cable on the driver. So balanced heaphone output could be nice but the origin of famous headache too.

 

For a balanced ouput like a LO, i'm not a huge fan of that because you have to make a choice : A balanced LO or a "single-ended" LO. It will be a unfair choice if you look at the number of devices which haven't a balanced input to handle that.

 

If you give Android to your customers, they are waiting for wi-fi or bluetooth or both. Why ? Because android "must" come with that. Of course, we can decide to only install app with apk etc. but average customers (in audio marker) will not understand why they don't have access to wifi. Personally, I think Android is a bad choice from Fiio. If they stick to their choices, all right so go to the end to your idea or you do like Ibasso put a minimal base of Android and build around it a firmware with your sound's lib. It will be a good remake of the dx-50 firmware :). This is not the thread for that simply because Fiio already make the point saying "The X7 will have a touchscreen and Android" so my demands follow those statements not my personnal view of a perfect flagship DAP which I'm sure is far more close to yours (except for the memory's size). Like you say : We want a dap not fancy features. For me Android is a fancy feature :).

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmberOzL View Post
 

You say balanced output is not a killer but why not? Then you say don't go for dual dac. Well without dual dac, they can't put balanced output section in it.

 

Android doesn't have to mean that they will have to handle with useless things.

 

If they bring something decent as a player, nobody needs stupid players from Play Store. Also Bluetooth is one of the most stupid thing ever happened to dap world. Completely useless.

 

For the who uses Bluetooth in AK120 or something, well stick to it then. We want a DAP, not a fancy toy with features that actually we don't need.

 

As for the screen size, I agree with you. Screen shouldn't be huge and battery consuming. Something battery efficient and easy to handle with 1 hand is important.

 

USB Audio Output would be great option as a Digital Out. You can connect it to many things like CLAB Theorem 720, CEntrance Hifi M8 etc. Line out is a must too.

 

While I prefer to have a dap that can stay as a standalone player, when we talk about flagship and high price, those features might come handy.

post #36 of 68

If this discussion was for entry level or mid level device, I would agree with you. An average customer or audiophile or music lover would probably not want to change his cables. Also they wouldn't understand why there are no fancy things like wifi, bluetooth.

 

Then again when you talk about a dap that supposed to be the flagship killer, I think the people who would purchase and use it are willing to change their cables and already don't even care about wifi and all. Look at HM901. Horrible UI, brick size, definitely not great user experience, durability concerns etc etc. But when the thing sings like heaven, they don't mind and use it. Nobody complains about cable changing or lack of wifi for example.

 

What we want here is the best of both world. Make a great player without the common negative sides that has been repeated many times over many companies.

 

Currawong was saying something like this about high end daps (might not be exactly what was he saying since I can't remember 100%):

 

* Great sound

* Great user experience

* Great ergonomics and design

 

Choose only 2.

 

Well, FiiO can change it, they can make a great dap without bullsh*t in it. Because; first, they listen to us and second, they have an ability to do it. Look at X3 and especially X5. People claimed that X5 is as good as 90% of HM901. So, I say, FiiO can make it even better, they just have to focus on what is needed, what is not needed and make it simple. Simple is always the better.

 

That's why we are trying to reach James here and explain the situation because somehow all the high end daps are flawed. Look a ZX1 for example. Perfect except ridiculously low power output and small 128 gb capacity (I will not even discuss it, 128 gb is pathetic for an high end dap which plays 24/192). Look at HM901, huge as hell, before christ UI, 4-5 hours of battery life with balanced amp card and yes only one sd card slot. Look at DX100/HDP R10, bad UI, bad ergonomics, very heavy, relatively low battery life, everybody was complaining about user experience.

post #37 of 68

Why the user experience was so bad with DX100? Because the Android impletation was crap, the wifi module was crap, etc. The DX-100 was more a PoC for me than a finished product. If Fiio want to go Android, they have to made clever unless they just want to make a DX-100-like. When you see the actual market of DAP, you understand that some customers want to have access to streaming audio (which implies Wi-Fi). That's why the ZX1 exists. And it's also the kind of customers, Fiio can not reach without making a connected DAP and I'm sure that's why Android base was chosen. Even the price tag match with it.

 

I'm not gonna argue about the memory size, we definitely have a different point of view. For me, 128Go is already too much for my personnal use (I live with 4Go and 8Go, no µSD). So it will be useless, we will never find a compromise about that. That's not really a problem :)

 

To come back to the Fiio X7, I'll wait till James can tell us or not if we gonna see Wi-Fi on it to make further expectations.

 

PS : Simple is always better, Android isn't simple for me so :)

post #38 of 68

Yep, we definitely need James in here to clarify some points. Will he really bring the ultimate device we have been waiting for or will he just bring another high end dap with usual flaws in it. Which way he will go is up to him, but he can reach the end goal in both ways, if he designs the product correctly.

post #39 of 68
post #40 of 68

I can accept most of the options James has included in the current spec sheet with the following exceptions:

 

- if sticking with Android, pare it down to bare bones required for hi-res audio playback. This is supposed to be a high-end DAP, not a smartphone

 

- NO wifi, NO bluetooth. This adds no value whatsoever (even with aptX) & takes up valuable real estate that could be used for other better components/options

post #41 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbr1971 View Post
 

 

- if sticking with Android, pare it down to bare bones required for hi-res audio playback. This is supposed to be a high-end DAP, not a smartphone

 

- NO wifi, NO bluetooth. This adds no value whatsoever (even with aptX) & takes up valuable real estate that could be used for other better components/options

 

 

Agree.

 

Agree.

post #42 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

 

 

Agree.

 

Agree.


Agreed too, +1.

post #43 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbr1971 View Post
 

I can accept most of the options James has included in the current spec sheet with the following exceptions:

 

- if sticking with Android, pare it down to bare bones required for hi-res audio playback. This is supposed to be a high-end DAP, not a smartphone

 

- NO wifi, NO bluetooth. This adds no value whatsoever (even with aptX) & takes up valuable real estate that could be used for other better components/options


1) Agreed like said in my first post on this topic. I have some problems to be sure to understand clearly what "Custom OS based on Android" means in fact. It is like the Ibasso's firmware, a minimalist Android base provided from the SoC constructor with a lot thinks dropped by Fiio and custom sound librairies and so on? Which means we can dreams about Rockbox ported to the X7. Or it's going to be a NX-1-like Android cutoms wich means, a stock Android with some customisations and a Fiio app with good integration of the physical buttons. James, some help ?

2) I wish I could agree but I'm pretty sure it isn't gonna happen, sadly.

 

A pointless detail wich scares me more is the volume knob. It's a knob like in amp-style: big and taking useless place or a simple et little one like the C5D/Pico Slim/And so on?

 

Taking an ESS9018 for the DAC... Ok, why not? Be aware of making an DX-100-like device. Not the best choice for me but certainly a good choice taking in consideration the hype around that chip. It's gonna take a lot of space to put the caps and others fancy thinks on it but that's their choices.

 

Considering the memory going for a double µSD, why not going for a single SD slot ? Cheaper, *put here the usual supects/arguments about the SD/µSD's debate*, etc.

post #44 of 68

I would prefer double normal size sd slot or mSATA integration but apparently James doesn't feel us.

 

As for the wifi and Bluetooth: complete nonsense in flagship audiophile dap.. Sad, but true..

post #45 of 68

I wouldn't say WIFI is nonsense. On the contrary wireless streaming could be really useful if your library didn't fit into the flash memory.

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