or Connect
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Portable Headphones, Earphones and In-Ear Monitors › Most detailed, accurate, clear, neutral IEMs
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Most detailed, accurate, clear, neutral IEMs - Page 4

post #46 of 109
Thread Starter 

Ok, now, I'm wondering what people think about two iems I've been eyeing.  JH13pro VS Hidition NT6

 

 


Edited by SilverEars - 4/29/14 at 5:17pm
post #47 of 109
Look into NT6pro or SE5way thread where tupac0306 wrote as short comparison (upon my request) between JHA13pro, NT6pro and SE5way. After this my eyes are directed just on NT6pro:D
post #48 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyman392 View Post
 

 

I'm not sure what Etymotic does either...  That's beside the fact though.

 

For the longest time, headphones were measured and tested using pink noise...  There exists plenty of single-driver headphones that have that sort of extension on both ends with pink noise...  Which is exactly what you stated, blasting all frequencies at once.  There never is more than one frequency played at a time with anything, even if there is an awesome kick while there is a shimmer of cymbals going on...  Why?  Because recorded audio is still a function of time.  As with functions, one in, one out.  The magnet vibrates based on that function (not the current frequency it's trying to play, but that is related).  Remember, the sound is generated as a wave, a wave has one intensity at a given point in time...  That's all the magnet needs to do, one thing at a time (over real time). 

 

You keep on comparing IEMs and speakers...  They aren't the same...  The wave doesn't need to travel as far and that dimension is essentially lost.  With a speaker system, the driver you'd need to do a full-single driver setup is tough to get because it needs to travel a distance that is more than a few inches.  They aren't the same system, so that analogy goes down the drain.  But to answer your question, from a given distance, no matter how small, yes, if you properly damp a midrange speaker to flatten it, it will produce bass and treble fine.  Please stop using speaker system analogies, they don't fit because of that notion of distance

 

Time domain characteristics are more dependent on the environment than the driver itself.  That deals with the housing (or room for speakers) as well as materials.  So the question of reproducing decay isn't only in the driver, the housing has as much to do with it, so you can actually "tune" that to fix that issue. 

 

You don't need more than one driver to do what you need to do with IEMs and headphones in general.  Can you, yes.  Does it make it any better?  Debatable.  You can get just as much impact with a single driver as with a multi-driver setup as the distance needed to travel is low (a couple inches, a few at most).  Relative to the system, the drivers being used are huge in contrast to a speaker system in a room (speaker size vs volume). 

 

Pink noise does not show whether the sound coming out is representing the signal correctly, it is random noise, you can't tell if it's accurate or not.

 

The system scales, a few inches for a small driver is a model of a speaker system in a (going to be strange looking) room. This is basically how model wind tunnels work (in a padded room we ignore essentially ignore reflections), some stuff doesn't scale, like forms of turbulence, i.e at the sides of the wind tunnel.

 

I am talking about the decay of the recorded drum i.e the decay in the room where the recording microphone is placed, let's just ignore the casing for the moment, assume everything is sufficiently padded.

 

You are assuming a perfect driver, I am saying that driver does not exist yet, it is either not possible or we are not technologically there, the evidence so far says no iem has done it, and this is fact until proven otherwise, saying it should 'theoretically' work with an ideal driver is meaningless.

 

Please remember we are debating whether one driver can produce a neutral sound through all frequencies from chime of cymbals to slam of drums, so saying multi driver iems hasn't done it is not part of the debate.

 

Edit: for your last paragraph, unless you are saying frequencies under 50hz only travels a short distance, you argument about producing the same impact due to small distances doesn't make sense, it is not how hard it hits, that's the volume, you want the volume of frequencies under 50hz relative to volume of other frequencies!


Edited by milford30 - 4/29/14 at 8:47am
post #49 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by higbvuyb View Post
 

That would sound worse.

 

 

 

Drivers approximate linear systems well, and by the principle of superposition there is no problem with playing two different notes simultaneously.

 

Drivers are not instruments. Instruments play notes. Drivers produce vibrations. The driver does not do an FFT to work out which notes it should be playing.

 

It is easier for drivers to play combinations of tones (especially harmonics) than pure tones anyway.

 

1) therefore 6 of the same drivers with high/low pass filters can't out preform a system with tweeters, mid range, and woofers, hence one driver cannot cover the audible frequencies as well as multi drivers i.e produce the same impact as a subwoofer etc...

 

if 1 is true the rest of the comments don't matter

post #50 of 109
Fischer Amps FA4 E XB
post #51 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by milford30 View Post

1) therefore 6 of the same drivers with high/low pass filters can't out preform a system with tweeters, mid range, and woofers, hence one driver cannot cover the audible frequencies as well as multi drivers i.e produce the same impact as a subwoofer etc...

if 1 is true the rest of the comments don't matter
1 is clearly false.

I don't know why you keep insisting on high-passing a full range driver. this does not make it a bettertweeter because hi pass can only cut off lower frequencies, it can't extend higher ones.

The full range driver by itself would sound better than your 6 full range drivers with pointless crossover network, and it would sound better than your woofer+tweeter+midrange.

The question you should be asking instead is 'do true full range drivers exist' and the answer is 'for IEMs, yes'.
post #52 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by higbvuyb View Post


1 is clearly false.

I don't know why you keep insisting on high-passing a full range driver. this does not make it a bettertweeter because hi pass can only cut off lower frequencies, it can't extend higher ones.

The full range driver by itself would sound better than your 6 full range drivers with pointless crossover network, and it would sound better than your woofer+tweeter+midrange.

The question you should be asking instead is 'do true full range drivers exist' and the answer is 'for IEMs, yes'.

 

That's what we're debating about, does a full range driver exist such that it beats out multi drivers in the bass AND mids AND highs... So basically a full range driver that beats a tweeter at highs, mid range driver at mids and woofer at bass quantity and impact

 

Please name one of these full range drivers that you are talking about


Edited by milford30 - 4/29/14 at 4:35pm
post #53 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by milford30 View Post
 

 

That's what we're debating about, does a full range driver exist such that it beats out multi drivers in the bass AND mids AND highs... So basically a full range driver that beats a tweeter at highs, mid range driver at mids and woofer at bass quantity and impact

 

Please name one of these full range drivers that you are talking about

 

OK, I've found lots of single-drivers that do what you ask...  In the class of dynamics we have the HiFiMan RE-400 and RE-272 both of which have low to no roll off up to the 20 Hz range and treble extension that doesn't exceed -15 dB (OW compensation calls for -10 dB a norm for treble from the standard DF compensation) up to the 20 kHz range. 

 

In the class of Balanced armatures we have less developed situations.  I will admit that the BA hasn't been developed as a full-range driver...  Yet.  That's still being worked on and lots of manufacturers have made great headway with that.  Remember a BA was originally created for hearing aids, which focused around the 1 kHz range...  The BAs I mention below are peaky in the super-sonic ranges, but do extend up there.  They are the Phonak PFE1xx (black filters), if you take off the filters, the highs extend even further (filters were placed to subdue highs to make them less fatiguing).  It rolls off around the 18-19 kHz (if you can hear that high that is, most adults can't hear past 15-16).  The UE 700 is done in a similar fashion, but peakier.  Both of the mentioned BA models live up to the same not exceeding -15 dB (again, OW compensation would set a treble range of -10 dB as 0). 

 

Obviously there are multi-driver designs that hit this mark as well.  An underrated IEM, the Apple In-Ears actually does quite well with this and has bass extension and treble extension on both ends.  The average treble extension doesn't exceed -15 dB, treble extension up to about 20 kHz won't exceed -20 dB.  This is a dual driver system.  The Phonak PFE232 also has linear bass and treble that doesn't drop below -10 until it hits 17 kHz and extends like crazy.  It is V-shaped in nature though, it's a dual-system.

 

Now, if we look at some of the high hitting multi-driver (4+) designs we'll find the following...  With the Logitech UE 900, we'll find that it's treble extension is actually really good, it doesn't go below -15 dB for up to 20 kHz, the bass extension is quite nice as well (listening to it you'll find that the decay is like the Etymotics, not heavy, but accurate).  The Westone W40 (AKA W4R AKA W4) rolls off in both the treble (spikes at 10 kHz and declines to -15 at around 12 kHz never recovering; though there are ways to help this) as well as the bass (starts rolling off at 100 Hz).  Keep in mind that the W40 has not 1, but 2 drivers specifically aimed at doing bass and sub-bass (it has two woofers).  The AKG K3003 spikes at 10 kHz and drops to -15 dB and stay that way until around 17 kHz when it drops off for good...  However, its bass starts rolling off at 100 Hz (it's a multi-driver hybrid system using a dynamic driver specifically to avoid bass roll off...).  Keep in mind that these quad-drivered IEMs are heavy hitters and well regarded sonically on Head-Fi, but don't pass this extension test one way or another (with the exception of the UE 900 that doesn't have weight in the bass, but excellent extension).

 

So there are systems of both type that have this extension...  Both single driver and multi-driver that meet the criterion of bass and treble extension.  I referenced, not my ears for these numbers, but graphs provided by Innerfidelity.  They have a limited number of single-BA setups, because they are quite rare, and the fact that I found 2 that fit the criterion is a proof of concept (even if peaky).  If BAs continue to develop for full-range, they certainly can hit a point where a single BA can become enough.  Dynamics can already get that sort of extension (because they were designed to do so).  So there you have it, not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 examples of single drivers that meet that criterion of full-range. 

post #54 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyman392 View Post
 

 

OK, I've found lots of single-drivers that do what you ask...  In the class of dynamics we have the HiFiMan RE-400 and RE-272 both of which have low to no roll off up to the 20 Hz range and treble extension that doesn't exceed -15 dB (OW compensation calls for -10 dB a norm for treble from the standard DF compensation) up to the 20 kHz range. 

 

In the class of Balanced armatures we have less developed situations.  I will admit that the BA hasn't been developed as a full-range driver...  Yet.  That's still being worked on and lots of manufacturers have made great headway with that.  Remember a BA was originally created for hearing aids, which focused around the 1 kHz range...  The BAs I mention below are peaky in the super-sonic ranges, but do extend up there.  They are the Phonak PFE1xx (black filters), if you take off the filters, the highs extend even further (filters were placed to subdue highs to make them less fatiguing).  It rolls off around the 18-19 kHz (if you can hear that high that is, most adults can't hear past 15-16).  The UE 700 is done in a similar fashion, but peakier.  Both of the mentioned BA models live up to the same not exceeding -15 dB (again, OW compensation would set a treble range of -10 dB as 0). 

 

Obviously there are multi-driver designs that hit this mark as well.  An underrated IEM, the Apple In-Ears actually does quite well with this and has bass extension and treble extension on both ends.  The average treble extension doesn't exceed -15 dB, treble extension up to about 20 kHz won't exceed -20 dB.  This is a dual driver system.  The Phonak PFE232 also has linear bass and treble that doesn't drop below -10 until it hits 17 kHz and extends like crazy.  It is V-shaped in nature though, it's a dual-system.

 

Now, if we look at some of the high hitting multi-driver (4+) designs we'll find the following...  With the Logitech UE 900, we'll find that it's treble extension is actually really good, it doesn't go below -15 dB for up to 20 kHz, the bass extension is quite nice as well (listening to it you'll find that the decay is like the Etymotics, not heavy, but accurate).  The Westone W40 (AKA W4R AKA W4) rolls off in both the treble (spikes at 10 kHz and declines to -15 at around 12 kHz never recovering; though there are ways to help this) as well as the bass (starts rolling off at 100 Hz).  Keep in mind that the W40 has not 1, but 2 drivers specifically aimed at doing bass and sub-bass (it has two woofers).  The AKG K3003 spikes at 10 kHz and drops to -15 dB and stay that way until around 17 kHz when it drops off for good...  However, its bass starts rolling off at 100 Hz (it's a multi-driver hybrid system using a dynamic driver specifically to avoid bass roll off...).  Keep in mind that these quad-drivered IEMs are heavy hitters and well regarded sonically on Head-Fi, but don't pass this extension test one way or another (with the exception of the UE 900 that doesn't have weight in the bass, but excellent extension).

 

So there are systems of both type that have this extension...  Both single driver and multi-driver that meet the criterion of bass and treble extension.  I referenced, not my ears for these numbers, but graphs provided by Innerfidelity.  They have a limited number of single-BA setups, because they are quite rare, and the fact that I found 2 that fit the criterion is a proof of concept (even if peaky).  If BAs continue to develop for full-range, they certainly can hit a point where a single BA can become enough.  Dynamics can already get that sort of extension (because they were designed to do so).  So there you have it, not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 examples of single drivers that meet that criterion of full-range. 

 

Graphs only gives a bit of the story, both RE400 and RE272 has relatively little bass, and a less pricy dual dynamic iem like ATH-im50 kills them both (even the W4) in terms of bass (the impact is what you should get when you stand in from of a real drum, lacing in both hifiman models), and in my audition the highs. Just because it extends low there doesn't mean it's any good. It is not what it can do, it is how well it does on those ranges relative to multi driver iems.

 

I have not had a chance to demo the pfe 112/121 but client os' review suggests the bass is also lacking in quantity, UE700 is a "Dual-armature drivers for maximum clarity and minimum size."

 

I can say with certainty that the w4 beats the RE272 and RE400 in terms of bass quantity and impact, the w4 is not designed to be flat, it's suppose to carry the westone house sound. Also the w4 is highly tip dependent, it was not until the silicon star tips that brought out the bass for me. Heard the ue900 but didn't really like the vocals, so nothing much to say about them. Still havn't had the chance to demo the k3003.

 

To sum up, the graphs don't tell the whole story, it can only give you a general idea of what it sounds like. The only evidence I see is that the iems you mentioned are graphically nice looking, have good mids and highs, but are unable to replace a woofer equivalent in an iem. So my argument still stands there are no examples (or solid physical theory for that matter) that you can tune the iems you mentioned to be better than say ATH-im50 in terms of bass quantity and impact.

 

EDIT: yes I have actually walked into stores multiple times to demo/or own the iems above except for the k3003 and pfe 1xx


Edited by milford30 - 4/29/14 at 6:13pm
post #55 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by milford30 View Post
 

 

Graphs only gives a bit of the story, both RE400 and RE272 has relatively little bass, and a less pricy dual dynamic iem like ATH-im50 kills them both (even the W4) in terms of bass (the impact is what you should get when you stand in from of a real drum, lacing in both hifiman models), and in my audition the highs. Just because it extends low there doesn't mean it's any good. It is not what it can do, it is how well it does on those ranges relative to multi driver iems.

 

I have not had a chance to demo the pfe 112/121 but client os' review suggests the bass is also lacking in quantity, UE700 is a "Dual-armature drivers for maximum clarity and minimum size."

 

I can say with certainty that the w4 beats the RE272 and RE400 in terms of bass quantity and impact, the w4 is not designed to be flat, it's suppose to carry the westone house sound. Also the w4 is highly tip dependent, it was not until the silicon star tips that brought out the bass for me. Heard the ue900 but didn't really like the vocals, so nothing much to say about them. Still havn't had the chance to demo the k3003.

 

To sum up, the graphs don't tell the whole story, it can only give you a general idea of what it sounds like. The only evidence I see is that the iems you mentioned are graphically nice looking, have good mids and highs, but are unable to replace a woofer equivalent in an iem. So my argument still stands there are no examples (or solid physical theory for that matter) that you can tune the iems you mentioned to be better than say ATH-im50 in terms of bass quantity and impact.

 

EDIT: yes I have actually walked into stores multiple times to demo/or own the iems above except for the k3003 and pfe 1xx

 

This comes down to preference and less technical ability...  Sorry, I have to say that now...  The OP would disagree with you on a number of fronts about bass quantity, saying that much bass would destroy clarity and naturalness in vocals and midrange instrumentals, as would I in some instances.  The RE-400 has just enough bass quantity, if that still isn't enough, the RE-600 will do it with the linear bass extension.  With that said, I'm not going to argue with you regarding something that is preference, it'll just become a yelling match. 

 

BTW, time domain is measured using the square sine waves, so that's where decay information would be.  It's not as straight forward to read as a CSD, but it is there ;)  That's all I'll say. 

 

I believe that graphs do tell a whole story...  The issue is that we don't know how to read them in their entirety yet (so reading a graph may not work so well).  However, they can easily be used to confirm our own subjective findings.  In other words, it's easy to go form the subjective realm to the graphical one, but going from graphical to subjective is not entirely possible... yet.  That's a story for another day. 

 

______

 

@OP: I stand by my recommendations of the RE-272, RE-262, RE-400, and possibly the Etymotic ER4 for your IEM.  If you can go custom, the UERM might be something to look into (although it's a bit expensive).  As always, I recommend auditioning the IEM before purchasing if possible. 


Edited by tinyman392 - 4/29/14 at 8:23pm
post #56 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by milford30 View Post
 

Graphs only gives a bit of the story, both RE400 and RE272 has relatively little bass, and a less pricy dual dynamic iem like ATH-im50 kills them both (even the W4) in terms of bass (the impact is what you should get when you stand in from of a real drum, lacing in both hifiman models), and in my audition the highs. Just because it extends low there doesn't mean it's any good. It is not what it can do, it is how well it does on those ranges relative to multi driver iems.

No, the graphs clearly show that the IM50 has more bass.

 

If you want more bass quantity, then talk about bass quantity, not extension.

This is your subjective preference for more bass; it doesn't mean the RE400 has 'bad' bass.

Tips don't affect bass unless you don't have a correct seal.

 

The MH1 is a single driver and it extends well both ways. It also has like +15dB of bass.

If you have lots of money, the IE800 has good extension and has +10dB of bass.

Both single drivers.

post #57 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by higbvuyb View Post
 

No, the graphs clearly show that the IM50 has more bass.

 

If you want more bass quantity, then talk about bass quantity, not extension.

This is your subjective preference for more bass; it doesn't mean the RE400 has 'bad' bass.

Tips don't affect bass unless you don't have a correct seal.

 

The MH1 is a single driver and it extends well both ways. It also has like +15dB of bass.

If you have lots of money, the IE800 has good extension and has +10dB of bass.

Both single drivers.


I have mentioned numerous times it's not if it can do it (extension) it's if it does well (more realistic) ... I specifically used impact and slam which has appears to be in the sub bass region.

This discussion is about how neutral the iem sound, as I have stated the opinion is compared to actual drums.

post #58 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyman392 View Post
 

 

This comes down to preference and less technical ability...  Sorry, I have to say that now...  The OP would disagree with you on a number of fronts about bass quantity, saying that much bass would destroy clarity and naturalness in vocals and midrange instrumentals, as would I in some instances.  The RE-400 has just enough bass quantity, if that still isn't enough, the RE-600 will do it with the linear bass extension.  With that said, I'm not going to argue with you regarding something that is preference, it'll just become a yelling match. 

 

BTW, time domain is measured using the square sine waves, so that's where decay information would be.  It's not as straight forward to read as a CSD, but it is there ;)  That's all I'll say. 

 

I believe that graphs do tell a whole story...  The issue is that we don't know how to read them in their entirety yet (so reading a graph may not work so well).  However, they can easily be used to confirm our own subjective findings.  In other words, it's easy to go form the subjective realm to the graphical one, but going from graphical to subjective is not entirely possible... yet.  That's a story for another day. 

 

______

 

@OP: I stand by my recommendations of the RE-272, RE-262, RE-400, and possibly the Etymotic ER4 for your IEM.  If you can go custom, the UERM might be something to look into (although it's a bit expensive).  As always, I recommend auditioning the IEM before purchasing if possible. 

 

If you're saying comparing what i'm hearing in the IMPACT of bass region with the iem I own, to actual physical drums in front of me is subjective, then I have nothing to say. I would not consider a small pop instead of a good slam from a drum not neutral.

 

The ATH-im50 happens to have great bass without clear bleeding into the midrange.

 

All these graphical readings are only a guide, it strongly depends on how the iem is positioned on the dummy head, what tips it uses etc. This error is huge especially in the bass region, a slight change in angle or seal means the difference between bass roll off and relatively good bass. As with all scientific theory, it is just the best representation we can give for something we don't really understand! This testing method is shaky at best.

 

note again I am talking about IMPACT as I have mention in nearly every post.

post #59 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by milford30 View Post
 


I have mentioned numerous times it's not if it can do it (extension) it's if it does well (more realistic) ... I specifically used impact and slam which has appears to be in the sub bass region.

This discussion is about how neutral the iem sound, as I have stated the opinion is compared to actual drums.

As I said, subjective, your personal opinion, etc. There are other people who find ety bass to be 'realistic'.

 

I've already given two examples of single driver IEMs which have plenty of bass, 'impact' and 'slam', whatever.

post #60 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by higbvuyb View Post
 

As I said, subjective, your personal opinion, etc. There are other people who find ety bass to be 'realistic'.

 

I've already given two examples of single driver IEMs which have plenty of bass, 'impact' and 'slam', whatever.

 

Comparing an iem to an actual instrument in front of you can ONLY be subjective, giving the testing methods of iems, there are hardly any facts around that are not general like +10db in the 50hz range means sub bass exists.

 

I only used bass as an example, because I thought it would be clear, and assume people have heard actual drums recently (in real life not on tv). I guess not many people theses days sit near an actual instrument and listen, mostly through the headphones or speakers.

 

sit in front of a drum and tell me the bass on the ER4 is more like that drum than the ATH-im50.

 

This debate is Tinyman claiming there exists one driver (through tuning) that is better than multi drivers in all respects (this is why I used the 6 cross over example) details, quality and quantity of each range, better as in neutral, sounding more like the instrument/voice etc. And I claim that that is currently not possible.

 

Hence I only have to show that this driver cannot complete with the tweeter/woofer in iem x to show that there is not evidence this all in one driver neutral driver exists.

 

I have not heard the ie800, but the m1c (I own) has a veil in the mids, i'm not sure if it's due to the highs and lows standing out more, or lack in details. I do agree the m1c is the closest single driver iem I have heard/own that comes so close to replacing my other iems when comparing the iem to something playing live (not through speakers, like sitting there playing the drums).


Edited by milford30 - 4/30/14 at 6:00am
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Portable Headphones, Earphones and In-Ear Monitors › Most detailed, accurate, clear, neutral IEMs