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Tube warmth and distortion and it's pros - Page 11

post #151 of 194
If you notice the music they choose for speaker demos? Same also can be said for headphone demos, as a single guitar, harp or vocals. These recordings actually are fond of audible sound color. Where distortions really cause issues is with complex musical passages.


We have always had a pair of headphones which do everything good until things get complicated. Obviously the amp speed is important here but if everything is the same some headphones just don't do complex passages.


A single instrument can be much more easy to get recorded also. So maybe the recording quality but absolutely the response of world class headphones and speakers is better with the reproduction of a single musical instrument. Even better a harp or guitar where added (color) harmonics make the sound sparkle magically. Lol


The driver just has less to do. Still we hearing an instrument with out the sonic pollution of other musical instrument factors adding confusion to the sonic display.



The only coherent line source speakers I have owned were the OHM Walsh 2s.
http://www.soundadviceblog.com/home-theater/ohm-walsh-speakers-unique-technology-stunning-performance/


They were not totally single point but close.



Interesting to read the same issues with expensive speakers as with lower cost speakers.

MBL Radialstrahler 101E Mk.II loudspeaker


http://www.stereophile.com/content/mbl-radialstrahler-101e-mkii-loudspeaker


Thus we get to the real reason why headphones can in certain situations claim better SQ at a fraction of cost. We have single point drivers an inch or inches from the ear. We need not worry as much about reflections and zero concern for room reflections or treatments. There is a single driver so no worry about crossovers or DSP crossovers. Timing is maybe easer as the sound does not travel as far before reaching it's destination.

There are still power issues and resonance issues and a whole complete subject in regards to cup placement and an air-tight fit. Still everything is in a way much more simple.
Edited by Redcarmoose - 9/5/14 at 2:38am
post #152 of 194

What is "amp speed?"

 

How does a speaker understand whether the waveforms are from a single instrument or an orchestra?  i.e. why do several instruments pollute the sound that speakers reproduce compared to one instrument when doesn't seem to be a problem with live music?

 

How does a driver have "less to do" when the source is composed of fewer instruments?

 

What kind of "timing" are you talking about because sound travels a shorter distance from driver to ear than with speakers.

post #153 of 194

People always seem to replace science with concepts that just "sound right". Music that is more difficult to listen to must be more difficult to reproduce. Flat response must sound boring because it is called "flat". Copper is warmer and silver is cooler. Digital audio is all jagged sounding from being broken up into samples. Jitter sounds like the music is skipping over parts. Timing errors affect the pace and rhythm of the music. None of these things are true, but ignorant horse sense logic makes them seem true.


Edited by bigshot - 9/5/14 at 9:44am
post #154 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by blades View Post

What is "amp speed?"

How does a speaker understand whether the waveforms are from a single instrument or an orchestra?  i.e. why do several instruments pollute the sound that speakers reproduce compared to one instrument when doesn't seem to be a problem with live music?

How does a driver have "less to do" when the source is composed of fewer instruments?

What kind of "timing" are you talking about because sound travels a shorter distance from driver to ear than with speakers.

Speed is achived many ways. The crazy part is at times you don't even know it can be improved till you improve it. It is in essence how your amp and headphones or speakers respond to musical changes. The lag I experienced was from power-cords. I also was able to get a faster response from my system with different interconnects.


It seems certain amps are more power cord dependent than others. Also some amps are more interconnect dependent and will show a change. The sound response from the system at first will be better with slower changing music and certain headphones. Jazz and Classical are both slower genres in general. Rock and Metal both need faster headphones and amps. Damping factor is the transducers (driver response) ability in relation to the amps signal. More signal power more damping also this is affected by the headphones themselves. Speed can be affected by the drivers ability to change direction or stop.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor


It is the amps and headphones ability to alter PRaT. PRaT is a real quality that can be noticed.


Sound time changes are also a real problem coming from different drivers in a speaker system. Headphones have all sound being released in a single per side enclosed enviorment so very little or no timing issues. If you study why single drivers are more coherent and why they reduce the arrival of some of the sound waves out of phase. With heaphones we never worry about the spatial or directional effects from the listening room.


These are some of the same reasons full range single drivers work so well. You have no need for DSPs or crossovers and no physical phase distortion. Though they do have some weakness at both the extreme high and low ends. They do great mids.

When I said the sound travels a shorter distance, I'm explaining that it has no room phase affects on it, or no reflections other than in the small driver housing. There is only resonance.

Look-up Constant Beamwidth Transducers and Single Full Range Drivers. I really can't make this stuff up?


In speakers room reflections are one way that sounds will be disintegrated in timing. Its just a form of distortion that we don't have to worry about as much with headphones.

I can not understand or explain why diferent powercables make amps sound different but they do. It is always from the wall to the amp. Even though the electricity travels from the power pole to the house wiring it is the wall to the amp that changes the sound. Woo amps are super power-cord reactionary. Some amps are not. All my power-cords are constructed with sheets of pure gold. I'm guessing there could be other ways to achive speed but this is how I do it in my system.


Less to do is the speakers clarity of sound from only vibrating in the pure harmonics of a single guitar or drum. Thus the color is only distortion added harmonics in the tone. A single guitar is also much more easy to record than an entire live band. Less microphones (except with drums) a sonic purity of purpose so to speak. If someone can convince me that a whole band is easer to reproduce than a single instument I would love to hear why.

A single instument can be much easer to blend into a mix, as there is no mix only correct volume levels.

Take an acoustic guitar and hold it up to a door. The guitar body, with the strings is now the creator of the sound energy being distributed by the door or even table top. The wood slab is the speaker. Now hit the door or table top with drum sticks while the guitar is playing. The guitar in this situation will lose both the listeners mental focus and now we also have the addition of another vibration.


Anorher reason for a single guitar track or single singer to demo gear is the feeling of being closer. Everyone wants to be a little closer to the sound.
Edited by Redcarmoose - 9/5/14 at 12:08pm
post #155 of 194

ok I got it so a speed amp:

- it goes to 11 (khz) when the signal was only 10khz.

-can cut the decay and reverb of both the instrument and the room/headphone.

-has a racing power cord for faster energy.

 

 

seriously Red, I understand the idea behind a "faster" sound, but the way you try to explain it is just WOW!!!! ^_^ I put it under "poetic sound fiction".

usually the feeling of faster comes with the reverb and decay time, also because that's where it manifests the most, the quantity of bass and sub bass. but all this has nothing to do with an ok amp.

 

because you buy colored amps, the EQ probably can give that feeling. maybe if the amp is bad enough, it might fail to sustain loud long low frequency tones, and it might sound like the bass are "faster".

 the damping factor could play a part too for some headphones. if it is really bad, the uncontrolled bass might end up feeling bloated and "slower".

but all those scenarios could be summed up as "bad amp".

post #156 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redcarmoose View Post

The lag I experienced was from power-cords. 

 

That's as far as I got in that post! Next!

post #157 of 194

Sorry I asked.  I guess I should have known that asking for clarification of nonsense would only lead ot more nonsense.


Edited by blades - 9/5/14 at 12:08pm
post #158 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by castleofargh View Post

ok I got it so a speed amp:
- it goes to 11 (khz) when the signal was only 10khz.
-can cut the decay and reverb of both the instrument and the room/headphone.
-has a racing power cord for faster energy.


seriously Red, I understand the idea behind a "faster" sound, but the way you try to explain it is just WOW!!!! ^_^ I put it under "poetic sound fiction".
usually the feeling of faster comes with the reverb and decay time, also because that's where it manifests the most, the quantity of bass and sub bass. but all this has nothing to do with an ok amp.

because you buy colored amps, the EQ probably can give that feeling. maybe if the amp is bad enough, it might fail to sustain loud long low frequency tones, and it might sound like the bass are "faster".
 the damping factor could play a part too for some headphones. if it is really bad, the uncontrolled bass might end up feeling bloated and "slower".
but all those scenarios could be summed up as "bad amp".

Some audio speakers actually need a low damping factor to sound best.



Damping seems to be the more the better with headphones still in the 50s and 60s you had low damping speakers. They even had damping adjustments to lower or raise the factor on HI/FI amps. Still much is related to bass responce. We all know that bass waves can run together and ruin the PRaT.

This may be the single reason damping has such an effect on speed/PRaT with headphones.
post #159 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redcarmoose View Post


Some audio speakers actually need a low damping factor to sound best.



Damping seems to be the more the better with headphones still in the 50s and 60s you had low damping speakers. They even had damping adjustments to lower or raise the factor on HI/FI amps. Still much is related to bass responce. We all know that bass waves can run together and ruin the PRaT.

This may be the single reason damping has such an effect on speed/PRaT with headphones.

 

I don't understand why you come into a sound science forum and make all these claims that have zero research behind them, or any other form of evidence that what you're saying is actually true. Nobody here will take it seriously, I really don't get what you're after. "Fast amps" just makes me laugh, sorry...

 

You seem like one of many people here, who will take some stuff that is actually scientific, like damping factor, impedance, and frequency response, and then use those words to concoct a personal theory of your own and posit it as a truth. "We all know that bass waves can run together and ruin the PRaT." --> ???


Edited by SunshineReggae - 9/5/14 at 1:09pm
post #160 of 194

Oh Lord, where's my aspirin. :blink: Too much nonsense  makes my head hurt.

post #161 of 194

redacted


Edited by esldude - 9/5/14 at 4:30pm
post #162 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunshineReggae View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redcarmoose View Post


Some audio speakers actually need a low damping factor to sound best.



Damping seems to be the more the better with headphones still in the 50s and 60s you had low damping speakers. They even had damping adjustments to lower or raise the factor on HI/FI amps. Still much is related to bass responce. We all know that bass waves can run together and ruin the PRaT.

This may be the single reason damping has such an effect on speed/PRaT with headphones.

 

I don't understand why you come into a sound science forum and make all these claims that have zero research behind them, or any other form of evidence that what you're saying is actually true. Nobody here will take it seriously, I really don't get what you're after. "Fast amps" just makes me laugh, sorry...

 

You seem like one of many people here, who will take some stuff that is actually scientific, like damping factor, impedance, and frequency response, and then use those words to concoct a personal theory of your own and posit it as a truth. "We all know that bass waves can run together and ruin the PRaT." --> ???


hey don't push him out. I hate it when "outside" people tell me to go crawl back to sound science as soon as I try to explain my opinion with something like a reason or a measurement, instead of making a blatant claim like everyone else. it's never fun to be rejected whatever the reason.

post #163 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by castleofargh View Post
 


hey don't push him out. I hate it when "outside" people tell me to go crawl back to sound science as soon as I try to explain my opinion with something like a reason or a measurement, instead of making a blatant claim like everyone else. it's never fun to be rejected whatever the reason.

He's got the whole rest of the forum to play. We're sent up to our room when we're bad.

 

Though I would prefer if people take the time to explain to him why he's wrong, if they're going to take the time to berate him for it. This should be a place of learning, not a grade school playground.

post #164 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Head Injury View Post
 

He's got the whole rest of the forum to play. We're sent up to our room when we're bad.

 

Though I would prefer if people take the time to explain to him why he's wrong, if they're going to take the time to berate him for it. This should be a place of learning, not a grade school playground.


well, I agree with you.  On the other hand, just look at that one long post.  It would take some time to sit down and explain it coherently because it is such a mess to start with.  It can be done, and some of it has been done.  His history also indicates doing so would have no effect on his opinion.  In best of all possible worlds I or someone would take just that time.  But it does try one's patience.  As you said, he has the whole rest of a huge forum, but feels compelled to come post drivel here. 

post #165 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post
 


well, I agree with you.  On the other hand, just look at that one long post.  It would take some time to sit down and explain it coherently because it is such a mess to start with.  It can be done, and some of it has been done.  His history also indicates doing so would have no effect on his opinion.  In best of all possible worlds I or someone would take just that time.  But it does try one's patience.  As you said, he has the whole rest of a huge forum, but feels compelled to come post drivel here. 

Hehe, that's why I want other people to do it and not me :beerchug: 

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