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Light Harmonic Geek Wave - Page 60

post #886 of 4052

Cyber Monday indeed.

post #887 of 4052


At the price, I am very tempted to try a pair. Gavin says they will arrive in January at their offices. With the current record of shipping things out, maybe May or June to get them in hand.

 

I don't know, I am getting tired of waiting for product from them. I knew this going in, but the lack of reliable status info and the numerous digressions into other products prior to finishing up much of anything...

well it is just discouraging!

 

I am just not sure I can go in for another potential aggravation.

post #888 of 4052
I'd be more inclined to back Project Supra instead of this mysterious Geek IEM that we know nothing about.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/512959633/earwerkz-supra-the-universal-custom-in-ear-monitor

Head-Fi's ShotgunShane basically started up the idea for this project and he's stated that it sounds like a mini-Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor. The craftsmanship that goes into each one is incredible since it's essentially a CIEM manufacturing process, but it uses universal eartips (making the resell value much higher, and you can share it amongst friends/family/other people).
post #889 of 4052
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

I'd be more inclined to back Project Supra instead of this mysterious Geek IEM that we know nothing about.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/512959633/earwerkz-supra-the-universal-custom-in-ear-monitor

Head-Fi's ShotgunShane basically started up the idea for this project and he's stated that it sounds like a mini-Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor. The craftsmanship that goes into each one is incredible since it's essentially a CIEM manufacturing process, but it uses universal eartips (making the resell value much higher, and you can share it amongst friends/family/other people).


I thought it was a joke at first, but the Geek IEM is real. I'm beginning to feel disgust towards this company, and not in the 'gee whiz, I just can't resist another product because they are such swell guys' tongue-in-cheek kind of way. They are the antithesis to great companies like Schiit, who actually respect their customers.

post #890 of 4052

I've been following the Geek threads in the background mostly, although I am a backer of several of their products. I have really mixed feelings about LHL, but I will continue to support long as long there are assurances that they can deliver on their bold promises. However, I completely understand the outpouring of intense unhappiness over some of their practices.

 

I think the best way to describe it is: you've gotta learn to walk before you learn to fly. Right now LHL is having an immense problem of consolidating all their current products (and variations) and to create a streamlined way of getting every organized and sorted out. I'm sure that there must be some mathematical way to compute everything out, but I suspect if you list out every single variant for every single product, there must be more than a thousand permutations.

 

And the most baffling thing of all is that this number continues to rise with each new 'product' being churned out, which in this case, is the Geek IEM. Look at Geek Pulse itself. It began as a simple bang-for-buck desktop DAC loaded with features and designed to compete at a much higher price point. There was just 3 iterations of the Pulse: the basic, the single ended upgrade (S), and the balanced upgrade (X).

 

Soon afterwards however, they came up with certain mini-upgrades like the femto clocks (f) and internal component max out (i). And with the launching of forever funding, came a fusion with a separate product (LPS) into a whole new branch (Soul) with even different sub-variants (x, xfi, tube). And over the last few days, tube buffers and other stuff.

 

And just when you think they're hitting the apex of possible permutations, they go ahead and launch two more standalone products (Power Amp, IEM), with the one (Power Amp) immediately having subvariants in itself (S100, M100, M200). All of this lumped into one single Indiegogo campaign supposedly dedicated to the Geek Pulse... as if it couldn't get any convoluted by mixing everything up!

 

And all of that comes when they still have a whole of other stuff (Wave, Source, Station) which are very much still lurking in the background.

 

Going forward, I don't expect more surprises to pop up, except that they no longer count as surprises anymore. I don't specifically know what... Maybe the Geek Pulse's final evolution will be a $10k monster, or perhaps there'll be the initial Geek IEM, followed by variants (Geek IEM RC, Geek IEM v2, Geek IEM signature edition e.t.c). The other 'old new' products will probably undergo tremendous expansion as well, somewhat along the lines of the same 'forever funding campaign' for the Geek Wave. And of course, I wouldn't rule out a Geek Planar Magnetic headphone popping up somewhere down the road, or even a whole new line of Geek Cables 4-wire (with options for 6 or 8 wire) OCC Copper (with options for overmold and non-overmold), with different terminations available (IEM, headphones, e.t.c)

 

This sounds like a full blown criticism on my part... except that there's a pretty good chance, assuming the product idea fits my needs, of me committing to some of them eventually, simply because LHL are just darn good at making quality audio components.

 

The crux of the matter is that no one here has qualms about LHL's ability to churn out great stuff. It's that they attempt to churn out so much in spite of having problems (and admitting to it) satisfying pre-existing ones, all while in the name of crowd-funding. Perhaps LHL should consider, that crowdfunding necessitates gathering opinions regarding product development, BUT ALSO opinions regarding when to start and stop developing a certain product, how to proceed with fulfilment of orders, and all the other non-technical aspects of it all. 

post #891 of 4052
@gyx11 - I believe we are in the same boat, I'm enjoying my GO100&1000 and waiting for the other Geek products to arrive, most of which I've probably over specced.

With the FW changes to the GO, with the undelivered products, and those in the pipeline - Pulse xyz, power amp xyz, soul xyz, etc - I feel the product range is befitting of its name as I'm not a Geek and frankly, I don't understand all the technical Mumbo Jumbo mess of a jungle it's become. Only the IEM I understand as it's only the cost of a meal for two at $39.

Frankly what drew me to the GO was the chance to taste LH's 5-digit sum products in a $200 item.
post #892 of 4052

Well stated.  I stopped funding any additional modifications (upgrades) for fear my order would be confused.  In fact, with the release of the Soul I got confused and had no inclination to pursue it.  At this point, I just want what I ordered and once I receive that I will consider other items.

 

I will say that their IEM100 is an incredible DAC/Amp which I use frequently with my Air.  The new IEMs are likely being produced outside per the rumors and should have little impact on any development/production efforts currently in flight.  Also, for the rumored backer cost of $38 you can't go too wrong.  These would be my "throw it in the bag" or beach IEMs.


Edited by Buddhahacker - 11/29/14 at 5:39am
post #893 of 4052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddhahacker View Post
 

We stated.  I stopped funding any additional modifications (upgrades) for fear my order would be confused.  In fact, with the release of the Soul I got confused and had no inclination to pursue it.  At this point, I just want what I ordered and once I receive that I will consider other items.

 

I will say that their IEM100 is an incredible DAC/Amp which I use frequently with my Air.  The new IEMs are likely being produced outside per the rumors and should have little impact on any development/production efforts currently in flight.  Also, for the rumored backer cost of $38 you can't go too wrong.  These would be my "throw it in the bag" or beach IEMs.


I am admittedly having one of those days as a backer; usually I just grin and bear it and put it out of my mind. On days like today, I don't mince words. They are nowhere near even the halfway mark for the Geek Wave's build and they have the gall to release yet more products which undoubtedly siphoned off a lot of man-hours of development from the GW. If they can start shipping the GW at the end of March, then I'm prepared to eat these words: There's no effing way they will meet that deadline with a DAP that lives up to its much ballyhooed billing, and if you don't think more products are coming down the pike, you're being naive.

post #894 of 4052

You know, I would be 10 times more understanding with what LHL is doing... if they actually bothered to leave some disclaimer(s) during the initial campaigns, or at least give some kinda indicator that they were planning to go down the 'branching' route.

 

What I find perplexing is how their campaign goals seem never to be fixed (if they even exist at all!). The Geek Wave for instance, was first presented as the 'ultimate, no compromise portable music player' when the original Geek Wave 64 and X128 and XD128 models were first launched. As it turned out, LHL then churned out wifi streaming, femto clocks, THD boosting, IEM optimizing and lots of other stuff. I'm not really how to interprete that. So was it actually a heavily compromised player that needed upgrades and more $ to be come non-compromised? Or are they indirectly stating that all the add-ons are superfluous non-necessities, and so the non-compromise part is basically no longer valid? Either way, it doesn't make sense. As a consumer, I'd like to see some adherence to product goals, and so since I saw the heading 'non-compromise music player', I'd definitely expect to see a music player which does away with everything except maximize the sound quality, enhance the user interface, and bring down the cost to the bare minimum... from start of campaign to the end.

 

There's three most probable ways of interpreting what happened with the Geek Wave campaign (and whatever is happening with the forever funding Geek Pulse campaign now)

 

1.) There was a radical shift in focus since the beginning of the campaign ==> That indicates that LHL is poorly structured and are hasty in their decision making

2.) The eventual shift in focus was deliberate, planned right from the onset... for whatever reasons ==> This may indicate a lot of different possibilities, which you can make up your own mind about.

3.) Larry, Gavin, Casey and co. genuinely discovered more possibilities and had bouts of inspirations which, when coupled with Larry's technical genius, compelled them to expand so quickly ==> This is mostly a positive thing I suppose, but even so, they should have heeded the warning signs and frustrated calls and at least waited until the Wave and Source were in the final stages of completion before launching them.

I genuinely hope that it's the 3rd case in question, because I'm invested in their products. You know, the fact that I'm trying so hard to love LHL, but am still myself conflicted (to put it mildly), really raises some warning bells...

post #895 of 4052

Maybe it simply is all to confuse the buyer. Looking at the IGG site I feel like a child in a lolly shop with not the least idea what all the flavours actually mean. Wow and that silver barbecue set looks great :confused: and that spitting snake with the open fangless mouth about to strike sent shivers down my spine.

post #896 of 4052

There's three most probable ways of interpreting what happened with the Geek Wave campaign (and whatever is happening with the forever funding Geek Pulse campaign now)

 

1.) There was a radical shift in focus since the beginning of the campaign ==> That indicates that LHL is poorly structured and are hasty in their decision making

2.) The eventual shift in focus was deliberate, planned right from the onset... for whatever reasons ==> This may indicate a lot of different possibilities, which you can make up your own mind about.

3.) Larry, Gavin, Casey and co. genuinely discovered more possibilities and had bouts of inspirations which, when coupled with Larry's technical genius, compelled them to expand so quickly ==> This is mostly a positive thing I suppose, but even so, they should have heeded the warning signs and frustrated calls and at least waited until the Wave and Source were in the final stages of completion before launching them.

I genuinely hope that it's the 3rd case in question, because I'm invested in their products. You know, the fact that I'm trying so hard to love LHL, but am still myself conflicted (to put it mildly), really raises some warning bells...

 

Ding!Ding!Ding! We have a winner! I'm getting the feeling that they were planning to do it this way all along - there are simply too many products for them to claim that these are all discoveries or ideas from the "Geek Force" (which I don't consider myself a part of - I want nothing to do with their legions of unquestioning boot-lickers).

 

Even if the Geek Wave is as good as the hype (as good or better than any current totl DAP) and isn't delayed too much (2-3 months max), I will still have a problem with the way they do business.

post #897 of 4052
Then crowd funding is not for you. I have funded over 20 different campaigns in the last two years and it's always chaotic. If you want a well organised and coherent sales structure, stick with traditional retail.

Welcome to the new world.
post #898 of 4052
Quote:
Originally Posted by gikigill View Post

Then crowd funding is not for you. I have funded over 20 different campaigns in the last two years and it's always chaotic. If you want a well organised and coherent sales structure, stick with traditional retail.

Welcome to the new world.


It's definitely not for me. The bigger issue for me is the way LH keeps releasing more products that are only tangentially related to the original campaign. How many of those 20-odd campaigns that you participated in followed a similar pattern?

post #899 of 4052

My problem is not so much the products they are offering at the outset but the fact that they are offering so many variations even knowing that historically they have totally failed to track and manage the various permutations.

 

The product line actually makes sense:

 

1. DAC/Amp

 

2. Portable player

 

3. High quality source

 

4. [Playback device]

 

Now, from their experience with Pulse, they know that having 3 variations of 3 different Pulse designs is NOT workable and they basically forced People who backed certain types of Pulse to other types of Pulse.

 

Now they did the same again with the Wave and who is to say they are not going to do the same. What if they say to everyone who backed the Wave 64 with only 1 mod, to go to a higher tier to get the mod because "we found out that our manufacturing friends can't handle the variations". Let's say I want the wave 64 with only the IEM mod. What if they say said you can only have the wave or the wave with both IEM and THD mods. Or that if you want the IEM mod, you have to upgrade to the X because their manufacturing partners only wish to build 3 different types of Wave and not (24 or 30 different variations depending on exactly which upgrades you want).

 

Now it remains to be seen with the Geek IEM, but if they follow the same model this is what is going to happen:

 

1. Geek IEM for $159 RRP (at the moment);

 

2. Special Cardas offering upgrade for $50;

 

3. Wait! We had customer feedback who want a balanced version; so you can upgrade to balanced for another $100;

 

4. Wait! If we use some super special cable braided and shielded in a special way, the soundstage is improved 100%; you can pay another $200 just for the cable because we have to use 6 year old children with special skill in carpet weaving to do this because only their hands are tiny enough to do the complicated weaving and it takes a year to train them to learn how to braid that pattern, and well, child labour is illegal ($400 for the balanced version because the children have to weave 2 sets of them for the balanced version);

 

5. Wait! Option to replace ALL the soldering with a special unobtainium solder and hand selected drivers which are hand inserted into the housings with a special hand made coating process, all hand made by Larry himself for $1000;

 

6. Wait! We decided that in order to do the Geek Soul XFI justice, you will need a super special version of the GEEK IEM with multiple drivers/hybrid drivers/balanced armatures. All Geek IEM owners have the option to swap their orders for 120% off the price they paid ($38) and pay the difference, but this time, the Super Special Geek IEM Soul XFI special edition version is going to retail at $5,000, they intend to offer this at Indiegogo prices of $3,000 so you only need to pay $2,500 for the super special version, and you should be glad it's so cheap because it has all the intended upgrades, but extra drivers and an extra housing ... (and then there will be 4 versions of this with different cables and different types of balanced and single ended plus using different solders and connectors).

 

7. Announcement that their manufacturers can't handle the variations and everyone who went for the balanced GEEK IEM version has to now pay $100 extra for the super special alloy cable because well, the manufacturers just can't handle the variations.

 

8. Wait three months while they go to yet another different tracking system because the one they did for Pulse and Wave just doesn't work. Then give up on the automated tracking system and Manny has to email you your selection and mods and cables and driver versions, because well, they didn't anticipate how complicated the tracking would be (which is even more complicated than designing the IEM).

 

9. Larry himself has to take time off to recode the delivery and tracking systems, because nobody is smart enough to do it.

 

10. 6 months later we get an announcement that child labour was made illegal in all countries on earth so we had to shift the manufacturing of the cable to genetically modified spiders weaving conductive nano-silk into the strand pattern required, so sorry for the delay, please wait another year. But in the meantime the road map says we have to learn how to modify spider DNA, increase their intelligence, train them in silk weaving and breed enough of them to make like 5000 cables, all with timing to be determined.

 

I challenge LHL to defy my expectations and come up with a sensible, manageable and deliverable plan.

 

I am all for a balanced version because the XD is designed with a balanced output on it, but not 600 add on perks to the base IEM which are going to drag the delivery timetable into infinity and are not deliverable by their manufacturing partners.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by gyx11 View Post
 

You know, I would be 10 times more understanding with what LHL is doing... if they actually bothered to leave some disclaimer(s) during the initial campaigns, or at least give some kinda indicator that they were planning to go down the 'branching' route.

 

What I find perplexing is how their campaign goals seem never to be fixed (if they even exist at all!). The Geek Wave for instance, was first presented as the 'ultimate, no compromise portable music player' when the original Geek Wave 64 and X128 and XD128 models were first launched. As it turned out, LHL then churned out wifi streaming, femto clocks, THD boosting, IEM optimizing and lots of other stuff. I'm not really how to interprete that. So was it actually a heavily compromised player that needed upgrades and more $ to be come non-compromised? Or are they indirectly stating that all the add-ons are superfluous non-necessities, and so the non-compromise part is basically no longer valid? Either way, it doesn't make sense. As a consumer, I'd like to see some adherence to product goals, and so since I saw the heading 'non-compromise music player', I'd definitely expect to see a music player which does away with everything except maximize the sound quality, enhance the user interface, and bring down the cost to the bare minimum... from start of campaign to the end.

 

There's three most probable ways of interpreting what happened with the Geek Wave campaign (and whatever is happening with the forever funding Geek Pulse campaign now)

 

1.) There was a radical shift in focus since the beginning of the campaign ==> That indicates that LHL is poorly structured and are hasty in their decision making

2.) The eventual shift in focus was deliberate, planned right from the onset... for whatever reasons ==> This may indicate a lot of different possibilities, which you can make up your own mind about.

3.) Larry, Gavin, Casey and co. genuinely discovered more possibilities and had bouts of inspirations which, when coupled with Larry's technical genius, compelled them to expand so quickly ==> This is mostly a positive thing I suppose, but even so, they should have heeded the warning signs and frustrated calls and at least waited until the Wave and Source were in the final stages of completion before launching them.

I genuinely hope that it's the 3rd case in question, because I'm invested in their products. You know, the fact that I'm trying so hard to love LHL, but am still myself conflicted (to put it mildly), really raises some warning bells...


Edited by nudd - 11/29/14 at 5:26pm
post #900 of 4052
To be precise, 4 of them were very chaotic, including LH Labs but I practised restraint.

Another campaign with Oculus was a complete cluster **** too for different reasons. Aurisonics (not exactly amateurs) also screwed up with a delivery date of June and I finally received the Rockets in the last week of November. A valve amp crowd funding went through 4 different iterations before a final product was designed.

Just the nature of the beast.
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