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Light Harmonic Geek Wave - Page 29

post #421 of 3762
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublea71 View Post
 


It's silly to charge $128 to make a portable dap work with sensitive iems. Think about it: this (at least the X128 and XD128) is a high-end dap and you have to pay extra to avoid background noise when using sensitive, high-end iems with it. The list Larry provided from Earphone Solutions, which was meant to show some examples of sensitive iems, were all $500+!!! What part of this equation is not farcical? I'll wager that most people who are even aware of it already have sensitive iems to begin with. If anybody should be eating the extra cost, it's those who want to use their full-size cans without an amp (although I suppose they are being targeted with the THD upgrade, as well). It all feels a bit like the showroom of a car dealership.

 

I wonder what's next...."New perk: for those of you who love classic jazz, we will optimize your Wave to playback classic jazz recordings by blah blah blahing the blah blah blahs. If you like jazz and you don't get this upgrade, it won't sound as good. That'll be $98." I know I'm being cynical - no need to point this out to me in a reply. There may be some very good reasons for their decisions, but I've yet to hear them.

Perhaps this is not the product for you then. 

 

Good reason for their decisions? I'll take a guess that for the base model they want to keep costs down for those who don't want or need any extra features, and they want a base model that works with a wide range of headphones. Now the downside of this is that there may be some noise floor issues for very sensitive IEMs. But addressing this means that the Wave is no longer capable of driving a wider range of headphones as well. What to do? Give an IEM option, and charge for the work it requires. No biggie. 

post #422 of 3762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscoeiii View Post
 

Perhaps this is not the product for you then. 

 

Good reason for their decisions? I'll take a guess that for the base model they want to keep costs down for those who don't want or need any extra features, and they want a base model that works with a wide range of headphones. Now the downside of this is that there may be some noise floor issues for very sensitive IEMs. But addressing this means that the Wave is no longer capable of driving a wider range of headphones as well. What to do? Give an IEM option, and charge for the work it requires. No biggie. 

 

LOL well I guess now we're at the point where using a DAP with sensitive IEMs becomes "extra features"... maybe next month having sound out of the dang thing will also fall into "extra features".... 

 

I rather live in the days where makers who make hissy amp for IEM are told they did a poor job, than these days where customers who don't pay extra are told LIVE WITH THE HISS!!! 

 

:deadhorse:

post #423 of 3762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscoeiii View Post

Perhaps this is not the product for you then. 

Good reason for their decisions? I'll take a guess that for the base model they want to keep costs down for those who don't want or need any extra features, and they want a base model that works with a wide range of headphones. Now the downside of this is that there may be some noise floor issues for very sensitive IEMs. But addressing this means that the Wave is no longer capable of driving a wider range of headphones as well. What to do? Give an IEM option, and charge for the work it requires. No biggie. 
First of all your argument does not work, because you need the iem option even on the TOTL model which costs 900$, so it is not too keep costs down.

And secondly, why, in a process which is supposed to be client oriented, even after so many clients say they are confused, or feel like this is a marketing gimmick to extract some more money from their wallets, they are just digging deeper in that strategy? Certainly because some people will defend them whatever happens....
post #424 of 3762

Well, if it costs $128 to make these changes to the 32, why wouldn't it take that much to make the same changes to the TOTL 128? I'd imagine making the Wave optimized for IEMs is an even bigger challenge for the higher output Waves. 

 

Ultimately it is the customers' money to spend. I was happy to spend for the IEM package (especially after my hiss experience with the iDSD). Others may not be willing. Nice to have the choices IMO, confusing as they all may be. I did appreciate the message that LH Labs sent out with their suggestions for add ons at different price points. 

 

If y'all feel differently from me, then there are other options out there for you to choose from that approach designing and selling DAPs differently. 

post #425 of 3762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimouille View Post


First of all your argument does not work, because you need the iem option even on the TOTL model which costs 900$, so it is not too keep costs down.

And secondly, why, in a process which is supposed to be client oriented, even after so many clients say they are confused, or feel like this is a marketing gimmick to extract some more money from their wallets, they are just digging deeper in that strategy? Certainly because some people will defend them whatever happens....


Exactly right. Since they're telling people to get either the iem perk (for those with sensitive iems) or the THD perk (for those with power-hungry cans), who exactly is the standard XD128 for? Would having the capability to handle sensitive iems as a standard feature somehow inconvenience those with non-sensitive iems/headphones? It seems they're sort of doing the same thing that Hifiman does with the HM-901 and the various amp cards.

post #426 of 3762

Well if you are OK with the standard THD specs (already quite good), then no need to buy that perk. If you are willing to upgrade to even better THD specs, then you pay your money. 

 

What is with this apparent unwillingness to pay more money for better performance? That is how the audio hobby works.Yes, often the improvement will be incremental, so we all have to make a decision about what level of performance we are willing to pay X amount of dollars for. And LH Labs has offered their opinion on the best bang-for-the-buck combos of upgrades at a number of price points. 

 

And its not like there aren't a slew of DAPs being sold that don't offer these customization options. If you prefer that sales model, then maybe best to go with one of them. 

post #427 of 3762
Most of the iems and cans I plan to use with Wave are low sensitivy, would I be best served to get the special iem configuration? My goal is to get Sennheiser IE800 some point in the future, meanwhile I'll be using Momentums and Fidelio S2's, which are rated 18 and 22 ohms respectively.
post #428 of 3762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscoeiii View Post
 

Well if you are OK with the standard THD specs (already quite good), then no need to buy that perk. If you are willing to upgrade to even better THD specs, then you pay your money. 

 

What is with this apparent unwillingness to pay more money for better performance? That is how the audio hobby works.Yes, often the improvement will be incremental, so we all have to make a decision about what level of performance we are willing to pay X amount of dollars for. And LH Labs has offered their opinion on the best bang-for-the-buck combos of upgrades at a number of price points. 

 

And its not like there aren't a slew of DAPs being sold that don't offer these customization options. If you prefer that sales model, then maybe best to go with one of them. 


Being able to pick and choose is a good thing - I agree with you there. There is a chance that these perks aren't even necessary with anything below the XD128 as far as sensitive iems are concerned. Like I said in the GO thread, a few people have reported no hiss with the GO450 as long as the 3D Awesomefier wasn't switched on. I wonder if LH will be forthcoming if asked about this. Only one way to find out...

post #429 of 3762
Have you inquired on the Geek Force forum? They seem pretty responsive.
post #430 of 3762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojokkeli View Post

Most of the iems and cans I plan to use with Wave are low sensitivy, would I be best served to get the special iem configuration? My goal is to get Sennheiser IE800 some point in the future, meanwhile I'll be using Momentums and Fidelio S2's, which are rated 18 and 22 ohms respectively.

 

IEMs can be low sensitivity and still have a low impedance. The IE800 are far from low sensitivity since they measure in at 125 dB. For those the IEM perk is a good match. The S2 on the other hand is only 90 dB so it's not really necessary to get the IEM upgrade for those. If you're set on the IE800 (or any high sensitivity IEM for that matter) as a future purchase then the IEM perk will serve you well once you have them, but you'll need to turn the Wave up a bit with the S2 until then. The Momentums will most likely want a bit more than 100mW of power to drive them to decent levels in noisy environments but it should be enough when you're in a quiet area.

 

Hope that helps a little.

post #431 of 3762
Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelCloris View Post

IEMs can be low sensitivity and still have a low impedance. The IE800 are far from low sensitivity since they measure in at 125 dB. For those the IEM perk is a good match. The S2 on the other hand is only 90 dB so it's not really necessary to get the IEM upgrade for those. If you're set on the IE800 (or any high sensitivity IEM for that matter) as a future purchase then the IEM perk will serve you well once you have them, but you'll need to turn the Wave up a bit with the S2 until then. The Momentums will most likely want a bit more than 100mW of power to drive them to decent levels in noisy environments but it should be enough when you're in a quiet area.

Hope that helps a little.

Okay, thanks again! As long as I won't hear hissing I'm fine with the regular version.
post #432 of 3762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojokkeli View Post

Most of the iems and cans I plan to use with Wave are low sensitivy, would I be best served to get the special iem configuration? My goal is to get Sennheiser IE800 some point in the future, meanwhile I'll be using Momentums and Fidelio S2's, which are rated 18 and 22 ohms respectively.


They say that anything below 32 ohms and above 100 dbl is considered sensitive, but I don't know how accurate this statement is. Most iems are under 32 ohms which means most should spend the extra $128...we don't know for sure about the numbers - there are possibly exceptions to what they have stated, but it's too early to tell.

post #433 of 3762
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublea71 View Post
 


They say that anything below 32 ohms and above 100 dbl is considered sensitive, but I don't know how accurate this statement is. Most iems are under 32 ohms which means most should spend the extra $128...we don't know for sure about the numbers - there are possibly exceptions to what they have stated, but it's too early to tell.


Impedance < 32 Ohm and sensitivity > 105 db / 1mW.   It's just a general rule of thumb, a guide, not an absolute. 

post #434 of 3762
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublea71 View Post
 


It's silly to charge $128 to make a portable dap work with sensitive iems. Think about it: this (at least the X128 and XD128) is a high-end dap and you have to pay extra to avoid background noise when using sensitive, high-end iems with it. The list Larry provided from Earphone Solutions, which was meant to show some examples of sensitive iems, were all $500+!!! What part of this equation is not farcical? I'll wager that most people who are even aware of it already have sensitive iems to begin with. If anybody should be eating the extra cost, it's those who want to use their full-size cans without an amp (although I suppose they are being targeted with the THD upgrade, as well). It all feels a bit like the showroom of a car dealership.

 

I wonder what's next...."New perk: for those of you who love classic jazz, we will optimize your Wave to playback classic jazz recordings by blah blah blahing the blah blah blahs. If you like jazz and you don't get this upgrade, it won't sound as good. That'll be $98." I know I'm being cynical - no need to point this out to me in a reply. There may be some very good reasons for their decisions, but I've yet to hear them.


You'll still be in trouble IMO if you like balalaikas

post #435 of 3762

Doublea71,

I share your pain...  But we've got to remember that LHLabs is trying to build a marketable DAP, and since this product will probably not be ready for general sale for >1 yr, then they better have an excellent design plan in mind, or all this talk about R.I.P. AK 240 will all look pretty foolish..  If the basic models have severe flaws (like hiss with sensitive IEMs), then this project may well be a market failure.  One of the "cheerleaders" on the comments section of the Indiegogo site pulled a bit of a Hillary Clinton earlier and claimed that LHLabs were out to make money....  I for one thought the goal for LHLabs was to make a very high quality DAP that could play high resolution music files, and the benefit for the backers of this fund-raiser was to get one of the DAPs (with or without added options) at reduced cost.  I really see (IMO) this whole IEM and jitter thing as a bunch of BS to get people to invest more money.... In fact, if you look at the recommended package for the X-128 (BEST option for <$1000.00), the IEM perk was not included.  There are affordable DAPs already on the market that do very well with sensitive IEMs and have no hiss (check out the iHiFi 960 for one)...  Surely Larry Ho and the boys can match this standard in their base models...  The biggest problem I have now is that all these perks are being advertised to improve the sound quality and we have no real information on anticipated performance specs for the base models...  No wonder there is so much confusion in so many people; the cheerleaders can easily tout the laurels of this perk and that perk, but until the DAP (and all its variants) is actually built, none of us will know what is sounds like..  Oh yes, they throw around terms like "lower the noise floor by 5 db" and "improve channel separation by 3 db", but without better reference specs, it's really hard to know how much these perks really offer.  So, I will just continue to hope that the LHLabs crew has the capability of building a high quality product in whichever variant you opt to buy...  I have invested as much as I intend to, and unless they add on a few freebies for reaching "stretch goals", I'm just biding my time until this fund-raiser ends (hopefully after July 12)....

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