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Light Harmonic Geek Wave - Page 20

post #286 of 3763
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimouille View Post

Yes of course...they are putting all these upgrades out for the love and engineering and the love of the customer. Not because they know audiophiles will pay for anything that tells it will improve sound and they just want to make the most money out of it. This is clearly marketing lead and not engineering led. It is nice to try a clever marketing move but when you get caught, do not try to take people for idiots even more...

I would clearly have prefered to have only 2 or 3 models, and the top one including everything.

I have to agree and disagree.

Oh course it's marketing led and I get that in a fund raising campaign, you don't reveal all your cards at the beginning. You need some bonus/added features to entice people along throughout but you can't say this isn't engineering led as well.

Marketing almost always ends up hamstringing, cutting short, and removing features of a final product, due to cost restraints and profit/revenue projections. But LH has given their engineering team free reign to design something with top end specs and seriously engineered but small pcb's.

The end retail products will obviously have fewer choices and will be contained to 2 or 3 models, most likely based on what is most successful from the campaign. So again, It goes without saying a fund raising campaign is certainly marketing driven, but this one also has a strong engineering voice and the lead engineer is actively engaged in conversation with all potential customers on their forums and the stretch goal casing design was a customer submitted design. Many of the other features were customer suggestions and/or changed and tweaked after much discussion.

At the end of the day, in campaign models like this, there are going to be happy customers, frustrated customers and some confused on the sidelines. I've been all 3 at some point in this campaign- nature of the beast I suppose.
Edited by shotgunshane - 6/22/14 at 6:42am
post #287 of 3763
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimouille View Post

Yes of course...they are putting all these upgrades out for the love and engineering and the love of the customer. Not because they know audiophiles will pay for anything that tells it will improve sound and they just want to make the most money out of it. This is clearly marketing lead and not engineering led. It is nice to try a clever marketing move but when you get caught, do not try to take people for idiots even more...

I would clearly have prefered to have only 2 or 3 models, and the top one including everything.


It's probably a combination of both and they are in business to make money after all.  You DO have a choice to upgrade or not and, quite frankly, the price to performance ratio is damn good, even with the upgrades.  I have the Geek Out and I'm sure, willing to bet money on it, that the Wave with all the upgrades will impress because the plain vanilla Out sounds great.  Call me fanboi if you want.  My ears tell me to do so! :L3000:

post #288 of 3763

Okay, can someone give me an accurate description of the difference between the GW 128 and the GW X128?  I understand the difference in the system topology from the posted schematics, but does the difference only matter if you use balanced headphones?  If you don't have balanced head phones and you only plan to use single ended earphones, is there any differences in terms of sound quality, sound stage, etc?  Thanks.

post #289 of 3763
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdog View Post
 

Okay, can someone give me an accurate description of the difference between the GW 128 and the GW X128?  I understand the difference in the system topology from the posted schematics, but does the difference only matter if you use balanced headphones?  If you don't have balanced head phones and you only plan to use single ended earphones, is there any differences in terms of sound quality, sound stage, etc?  Thanks.

Balanced. That's what the X is for.  XD has higher output power, bigger battery, Femto clock(not sure if the difference is audible), and dual mono.  Not sure what the benefits of the dual mono.  Also XD's path is isolated more with separate DACs iv and lpf and amp.  Anybody know the signal path crossing on the XD to the DAC is representing?  

 

In the end, you won't know if there are any real benefit without A/B'ing them.

 

geek_wave_chart.jpg

 

topology_geek_wave.jpg 


Edited by SilverEars - 6/22/14 at 8:54am
post #290 of 3763

Since the price of an upgrade doesn't necessarily correspond with the degree of improvement (due to differences in cost for the parts or labor), I was wondering what upgrades folks think will make the largest sonic differences, putting price aside: 

 

1) IEM package (for IEMs only of course)

2) Dual DACs

3) Femto Clock

4) THD Package

 

Discuss...

post #291 of 3763
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimouille View Post

Obviously. Several people have expressed the fact that the campaign is unclear at best, manipulative at worst. Some others like it just fine. You cater to the latter and that is just fine. But my opinion is my opinion. And if I look at facts, thr 128 is rhe absolute best at first but then not quite...to me that is not really straight shooting. But what do I know, I am just a potential client after all, who has tried every single DAP on the market and who was really intrigued, then confused then almost pissed...

Anyways let's noy get too far with this, just exercising my right to free speech.

I think part of the reason for this is due to LHL having a campaign for a DAP that is still in the design stage. There are obviously pro and cons to this. The pros are that people have more choices and they do not have to buy packages if they fell they are unnecessary. The cons are that more options and packages will be released along the way as the design continues to change, raising the price of the base player. Most people don't want to feel left out and that they are no longer getting the "best" so they will end up upgrading. I'm sure they could have done as you suggest having only 2-3 models with the TOTL model including everything, but the design has clearly changed since inception. Either way, if they had just included everything in the first design they would have had to charge more for it anyways . Yes, I agree that the marketing has been somewhat confusing at times and I think the only real thing you can fault them on is that the design wasn't complete when the funding started, but that was the point of the original campaign, to have the people that wanted the Wave help with the design.
The other option is that you could have waited until the final product is released, then paid the non funding full price for the 2-3 players that don't give you the option to upgrade or not. At least then there would be some reviews on the UI and SQ to help you decide if this DAP is worth it. Personally I feel that it is worth taking the chance on given Larry's track record with the Geek Out, based on other peoples reviews.

This being said, if all they had done was release a base player,middle of the line player, and the XD128 with all the perks included for $1600 I probably would have thought twice at the time. It is easier to get carried away with spending when done in smaller increments as opposed to one large purchase:)


Cheers Mimouille,
Dave.
post #292 of 3763
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post

Balanced. That's what the X is for.  XD has higher output power, bigger battery, Femto clock(not sure if the difference is audible), and dual mono.  Not sure what the benefits of the dual mono.  Also XD's path is isolated more with separate iv and lpf and amp.  Anybody know the signal path crossing on the XD to the DAC is representing?

geek_wave_chart.jpg

topology_geek_wave.jpg 

I think that is what the Dual Mono is... A completely separate path from the DAC to the HP/LO . I think they have crossing signal paths because they are using 2 different CPUs for two different purposes and they both have to be able to send signal to both DACs so that you will have sound out of both channels. One CPU is the XMOS which I believe is for DSD. All the other designs are not dual mono so the two CPUs already feed the single DAC or if they upgrade to dual DAC then they would still have to cross signal paths.
post #293 of 3763

Actually, I like this.  This is good to find out if the Dual chips help. Hopefully, they are doing this as to benefit their knowledge as research to find if the audible differences are there.

 

It would be nice if they had a dual chip to the regular one and X.  It would be A/B fun to try out all so that I can get an idea of the differences and if there are any.  

 

For example, it's hard to tell if it's the chip with X3 and X5 because they use different chips, but this one you have dual and mono, it's useful for finding out the benefits to different topologies.  :bigsmile_face:

post #294 of 3763

Yes, I am very curious about the benefits of the new Dual DAC option. Keep debating whether to add it to the IEM package that I already went in for on my 32...

post #295 of 3763

Okay, I understand that the X stands for balanced, but what does this really mean?  So I will ask again, is this only a benefit if one uses balanced earphones, or is it anticipated that this set-up will also be perceived with standard single-ended headphones?  Realistically (or even theoretically) would a balanced lay-out tend to improve sound quality, sound stage, detail,  ...what??  I'm just trying to understand the purported benefits of the GW X128 over the GW 128 (outside of the stand-alone DAC and possible upgrade in casing).  Thanks.

post #296 of 3763
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdog View Post
 

Okay, I understand that the X stands for balanced, but what does this really mean?  So I will ask again, is this only a benefit if one uses balanced earphones, or is it anticipated that this set-up will also be perceived with standard single-ended headphones?  Realistically (or even theoretically) would a balanced lay-out tend to improve sound quality, sound stage, detail,  ...what??  I'm just trying to understand the purported benefits of the GW X128 over the GW 128 (outside of the stand-alone DAC and possible upgrade in casing).  Thanks.

I will explain what I understand.  Balanced has separate ground for each channel.  Single ended or the normal headphone output has one ground with L and R channels.  Each L or R channel use the same ground.

 

Also, just because it outputs balanced does not mean it's true balanced.  For it to be true balanced, the signal path has to have separate path for each channel.  Not sure if Dual dac is required for this if one DAC has more than enough channels or if the each channel is already differential on ONE CHIP!!  Anyway, true balanced should have balanced through the DAC and separate amp per channel...

 

Hearing audible difference with Balanced vs Single is controversial.  Some amps have balanced and it's beneficial because it outputs more with balanced configuration.  Like the Beta 22 for example if you use an HE-6


Edited by SilverEars - 6/22/14 at 10:08am
post #297 of 3763
Balanced TRRS is pretty uncommon though. I only know of one single earphone that has it, the HiFiMAN RE-400b. Even if there was an audible difference upon ABX tests, would you be able to hear that difference in a crowded area like where a lot of people would be using the Wave? Probably not.

I would much rather spend money on a desktop setup with balanced connections, such as the Geek Pulse X, and I did.
post #298 of 3763
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

Balanced TRRS is pretty uncommon though. I only know of one single earphone that has it, the HiFiMAN RE-400b. Even if there was an audible difference upon ABX tests, would you be able to hear that difference in a crowded area like where a lot of people would be using the Wave? Probably not.

I would much rather spend money on a desktop setup with balanced connections, such as the Geek Pulse X, and I did.

I have actually really begun to enjoy listening to music sitting on my couch or reclining chair as opposed to my desktop setup:)  I also think the Dita Truth are supposed to be coming out with the TRRS connector and I will say that so far my Dita Answers are my favourite IEM.  But as everyone has different taste and needs YMMV:beerchug:

post #299 of 3763
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

Balanced TRRS is pretty uncommon though. I only know of one single earphone that has it, the HiFiMAN RE-400b. Even if there was an audible difference upon ABX tests, would you be able to hear that difference in a crowded area like where a lot of people would be using the Wave? Probably not.

I would much rather spend money on a desktop setup with balanced connections, such as the Geek Pulse X, and I did.

 

Their RE-600b is as well. And there are CIEM such as the Roxanne and others that come with balanced TRRS cables. You can also buy aftermarket balanced cables for IEMs with detachable connectors, but only a handful of companies will make them with balanced TRRS so that limits the number available.

post #300 of 3763

So is the aim of the balanced set-up supposed to be to provide a more accurate, more true stereo sound thru separate channels that ultimately drive the right and left sides of earphones?  Does this mean that channel separation would be enhanced and possibly a better (?wider)  soundstage??  I'm still just trying to understand the difference here... 

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