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FiiO X7, what is your dream DAP? - Page 22

post #316 of 687
Personally i feel that in the realm of DAPs, once at the level of the x5/dx90, at least the way things are now, improvements in dac stage implementation are not significant sonically. I've spoken to some guys who have designed really totl earphones, so i think they know what theyre talking about, and they agree on this too. In fact, even comingf from an iphone, they find the dax stage gains to be rather limited.

What does shine through, is the amp stage gains. Personally i use the x5, and tbh i am not impressed with the hpo. However when paired with smth like the pico slim or rsa shadow, things are taken a few levels up. Thus i feel that the x7 should have an extremely capable amp section. It may not be extremely powerful, but the refinement must be there.

For me, while i cannot afford it, i feel that the ak240 is the most perfect dap, simply because it has an amp section that is good enough to make me want to listen to it unamped even with the best of amps, a fantastic ui, and yes the balanced amp does help with full size smily_headphones1.gif
post #317 of 687

I am the proud owner of an X3 and an X5. Here is my wishlist:

- SQ, of course ;) Don't know, or really care, how you get this, you can stick in single DAC or quad, as long as we get good SQ for the price, I'm happy.

- A bit bigger than X5 is fine, but not too much. I think X5 thick with 5 inch phone size is a bit too much.

- Battery should be at least equal to X5 or easily replaceable.

- UI should be simple and fast. Details could be hidden in sub menus with regularly used functions easily accessible. 'bling bling' only makes devices harder to use, IMHO.

- Hardware buttons are a must, even for touchscreen devices.

- A high quality amp is a must, but with good noise control. Believe it or not, I hear hiss from the X5 with sensitive IEMs on low gain.

- Bluetooth aptX and WiFi are MUST HAVE! I will use this device everywhere, including my friends houses during a party (BT streaming), at home to stream Spotify to my stereo etc.

 

A remote control function, via BT or otherwise, would be excellent for when using the device as a standalone DAC or DAP connected to my stereo system. The QLS QA360 has a very simple IR remote control (details of implementation not known yet of course) which should be cheap and simple add on that will be enough... 


Edited by dulty - 5/25/14 at 10:27am
post #318 of 687

It would be awesome to have something like the Cowon X7 and it´s 110 hours of battery life + 160gb of storage, but with an updated UI and good DAC. It was a brick at size, but jeez, it´s a shame that nowadays it doesn´t exist something as practical as that. Could be possible to have at least 25 hours?

post #319 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenz View Post
 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

And now ... back to the main topic shall we?

 

Having enjoyed the Fiio X5 for a good 4 months, my expectations for the Fiio X7 would be high. Really high. (and saying this not in jest).

 

On paper the spec sheet so far seems a blend of iBasso DX100, iRiver AK120 and Fiio X5.

Which is impressive by today's standards. The thing is the X7 won't be out till 2015, and by then would the X7 still be as spectacular as we hoped?

 

In my time with the DAPS, the kings of the hill (just sonically) is currently occupied by iRiver AK240 and Hifiman HM-901.

And both are dual dac daps. Being just someone who enjoys music, I can tell there's a clear improvement of dual dacs over single ones.

It's tough to put it in words but a dual dac kinda gives the "full picture" if implemented well..

 

Would the X7 be positioned to compete with the top of the line daps in the market (regardless of pricepoint) or just a flagship within Fiio's catalogue?

These are very serious points to consider as this will determine the success of the product in the market it was intended to be.

 

OS: Custom OS based on Android. 

> sure. who isn't using Android today? how well will it be implemented? Tried the Calyx M android UI? Lag & Drag. Bad experience.

   Fiio's X5 UI is perfect for Full touch and it is fast and smooth. Lets not break a good thing going here.

 

Weight: Less than 300g 

> good weight giving it a heft and premium feel.

 

Size: thickness will be almost the same as X5 , the other size is almost the same as 5 inch Android Phone. 

> Same thickness/size as X5 yes. Same as 5 inch Android, no! DAP must be handy, users will not feel secure fumbling about a big block just to get to their music. Frustration just builds every time get frustrated using a big block as dap. We want a high end reference grade music player, not a portable movie player. Case study, just see Calyx M player. Is the bigger size, bigger screen worth so many trade offs like battery and portability? If size must be like 5 inch phone, then would expect an impressive amp board design implementation (See ALO rxMK3B+) , DUAL Sabre ESS9018 DACs and BIG BIG battery (14 hrs normal lossless, 8 hrs high on res/DSD).

 

Screen: 3.5 inch ~ 4.3 inch Full Touch Screen. To be decided.

> Music comes first, Battery is as important. Screen size max at 4 inch to cover album art, UI design makes all the difference. 3.5 or 4.3 doesn't matter as long as UI well done. 
 
Key layout: Full touch control+ Bottoms+ Volume Knobs
> Full touch and Full physical controls ideal. Portable on the move, physical control without looking is a big plus on any DAP. See how Sony implemented on X1060/70 Walkman and iBasso DX50/90. The Sony X Walkman implementation would be suitable for a player like X7 design.

 

Output power: > 300mW/32 ohms, Power supply: +/- 6V ~ +/-11 V  . To be Decided.

> Good range, Enough power. Need focus on refinement. X5 SQ is great but lacks refinement. Which X7 need do much better at. For a flagship dap, SQ with power must come with great control too.

Playtime: 10 hours 

> Decent. Ideally would prefer 14 hours. When playing high res and DSD like formats, the playtime will fall back to 8 to 10hrs.

 

Battery: Build in Battery.

> Replaceable Battery please. for 2 very big reasons,
   1. sell more spare batteries (good for Fiio), spare juice to change when no charger point available (good for users)

   2. no need send back to Fiio for replacement (saves Fiio inventory cost of keeping batteries for replacement), saves cost to ship back for replacement (for users).
       Cost and logistics is more cost effective in the long term for Fiio.


Data transfer: USB 2.0 ( Micro USB), WiFi

> USB 3.0 please. Imagine if X7 has 128GB memory + 256GB (x 2 microSD cards) , how long to transfer all that music? On an AK240, it took the whole night. Yes, a whole night.

   If not for the incredible SQ, the AK240 would have packed and gone back the next day,
   WiFi , sure. for data transfer, maybe a few songs but not an album. Battery life will take a hit transferring wirelessly.
  


Blue Tooth: YES , supports , supports APTX

> so far have little use for Bluetooth on a DAP, is good to have but not much use. APTX would be a good addition for a 2015 dap, depending on market adoption of the standard.

DAC chip: ESS9018 , not ESS9018M2K, The ES9018 includes 8 channels DAC which means it is equal to 4 X ESS9018M2K

> Sure. As far is I take this part, the Fiio X7 will sound as good (or as bad) as the iBasso DX100 which is a coming 3 year old product, 4years if taking X7 only arrive in 2015.
   If ibasso maxed out the use of the ESS9018 DAC on the DX100, then in terms of SQ, the X7
 sure won't beat the hifiman HM-901 which has 2 x ESS9018 (total of 16 channels)

   and not the AK240 (or the upcoming AK120 MK2). My fear is Fiio's flagship may end up being as good as other's "mass adopted" dap. (the Calyx M is one such example).

 

Enclosure: Metal

> Depends on who you ask. Metal feels premium but vibrations are no good (Ask DX100 users). The DX100 sounds better once the vibration issue is overcome.
   Plastic if done well, is as durable as metal, cheaper to produce and handles vibration better.

 

Build in memory: To be decided.

> X7 is a high end player, means users are going to have lots of high res music in it. Do the right thing, add at least 128GB built in memory. iBasso DX100 already had 64GB in 2011.

   By 2015, am sure almost every X7 user will get 2 x 128GB micro SD cards.

 

Extra Memory: Micro SD slot X 2

> Yes. But is also extra cost to user if built-in memory is low. (No one complains iRiver only has 1 microSD card slot for AK240 since built in memory is 256GB)


Accessory : Leather Case X 1,  Micro USB cable X 1, 

> Good to have.

 

M.S.R.P:   $699 in U.S

> This is a high end DAP. It is targeted at a market that probably can afford a premium price if the product covers all the important points.

   If the X7 is built to be the best portable player with NO compromise (best in SQ , best in capacity , best in battery life , best in daily on the go usability),

   Fiio can raise the MSRP to USD $899 or even USD $999, and people will still buy them in truckloads.
   if iRiver has shown us, is that there are many ready buyers even for a USD $2500 music player if all the key selling points are there.
   Am confident Fiio can do a better product at half that price.

 

 

James, make it happen. We're counting on you. :)

 

Honestly the biggest issue I see here is the weight and size, preium and smaller chip sets and boards, lighter parts are usually more expensive, seeing as when technology get's more powerful it often gets smaller, I think it would be a big mistake to push the use of the TOTL technology in a dap set for $699, if you make it more expensive then your now competing against other devices, at $699 the X7 is looking to be the top of it's class, maybe on par with the hm901 [which btw looks hideious and I don't like the new button config at all] still I think a smaller screen is worth while but aiming for a lighter and smaller DAP would push the cost up, in addition It might be advantageous for Fiio to consider who they are marketing this to, the users who mostly stream? And there are some very high res streaming services, or the users who play local content, being a jack of all is good, but it leaves you master of nothing, but then again at $699 jack of all might be your best bet, so long as SQ is on par

 

non the less, I don't think raising the price or pushing for a smaller lighter device are good ideas, most of the users who have high end CiEms or headphones to use this with will most likely have a carrying case of some kind, and look at celluar phones, each generation get's a little heavier and bigger, then they shrink. People today are getting used to heavier devices, in fact a heavier device feels nicer in the hand, you pick up something super light and you wonder how cheapily it was made...

 

but balance is key, I felt the X5 was a good balance, it was about as heavy as my hm801 but it was smaller, 

post #320 of 687

It has to be sexy. That s the key. 

post #321 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanMcJ View Post
 

It has to be sexy. That s the key. 

... no not at all. Were selling a High end Portable Music Player, where not aiming at people who want a "sexy" looking device, for some the iDevices are sexy but how do they sound? Not that great, espically not for the money they cost 

 

how ever though, It seems Hifimans hm700 has been selling to a lot of women... would you consider that device to be "sexy" if so you may want to look into getting one :D

post #322 of 687

Here are my suggestions to significantly improve Fiio X7 from X5:

 

1.Please use SD card instead of micro SD cards! It would be a bliss if X7 can accommodate two SD cards instead of two micro SD cards.

SD cards are cheaper and have higher capacity. I don't see any reason to prefer micro SD over regular SD. 

If you make X7 to accommodate two SD cards, it will result in 512GB, the largest capacity digital audio player available 

 

2. Please improve its design. Honestly, I find X5 very ugly. The 'X' design make it look like from 70's Sci-fi movie. I wish you guys make it something simple like a new AK100 II. 

IPod classic 7th gen came out five years ago. But, I think they still have far better design than that of X5.

 

3. Please make an output for 1/4 in regular headphone jacks. 

 

4. I hope its touch screen works well like Ipod touch. Some touch screen audio players such as Archos 500GB, Cowon X7 160gb have  terrible touch screen that almost spoiled the player. I'd expect a very highly sensitive touch screen by 2015. 


Edited by kawaivpc1 - 5/26/14 at 4:40pm
post #323 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCDchee View Post

What does shine through, is the amp stage gains. Personally i use the x5, and tbh i am not impressed with the hpo. However when paired with smth like the pico slim or rsa shadow, things are taken a few levels up. Thus i feel that the x7 should have an extremely capable amp section. It may not be extremely powerful, but the refinement must be there.

 

I agree completely: the X5's internal amplification simply doesn't seem up to par. It's a major issue, since it's highly impractical--if not impossible--for me to carry a separate amp. Indeed, I could not justify buying the X5 at its present level of performance. There are others who share my sentiments; for example, see miceblue's experiences per the X5 tour.

 

Quote:
For me, while i cannot afford it, i feel that the ak240 is the most perfect dap, simply because it has an amp section that is good enough to make me want to listen to it unamped even with the best of amps, a fantastic ui, and yes the balanced amp does help with full size

 

Again, I totally agree.

post #324 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanMcJ View Post

It has to be sexy. That s the key. 

Agree. Its supposed to be used in public.
post #325 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanMcJ View Post
 

It has to be sexy. That s the key. 

THE SEXY DAP


Edited by Silverprout - 5/27/14 at 2:58am
post #326 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by kawaivpc1 View Post
 

Here are my suggestions to significantly improve Fiio X7 from X5:

 

1.Please use SD card instead of micro SD cards! 

 

...100% AGREE ! 

 

 

3. Please make an output for 1/4 in regular headphone jacks. 

 

 

...100% AGREE ! 

post #327 of 687

Is there already a concept design available? I have the feeling that we are 22 pages further with a lot, and I mean a lot of 'preferences' without something tangible to work on...

If there is a concept, or a sketch, or whatever... It is way easier to say something about improvements/ personal feelings.

Defining a DAP as sexy has no weight until there is something of a design direction to play with. I am not saying that the information that is being stated in this thread is useless...

I am just saying that in the beginning, I was pretty psyched about the X7 idea but after a couple of weeks of the same and the same, I am not even checking the thread daily anymore.

Furthermore, the Calyx M and the new AK players (while being insanely expensive--> AKmadness) are close and the M is already being shipped and reviewed as we speak.

Now I recently got the X5, which is great when only focussing on the sound, but the new players do add the missing feeling of 'new' technologie. (UI, Touchscreen, looks)

I just hope to see something of the X7 soon as I am tending to look at those other DAPS instead of the X7...

post #328 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by kawaivpc1 View Post
 

Here are my suggestions to significantly improve Fiio X7 from X5:

 

1.Please use SD card instead of micro SD cards! It would be a bliss if X7 can accommodate two SD cards instead of two micro SD cards.

SD cards are cheaper and have higher capacity. I don't see any reason to prefer micro SD over regular SD. 

If you make X7 to accommodate two SD cards, it will result in 512GB, the largest capacity digital audio player available 

 

3. Please make an output for 1/4 in regular headphone jacks. 

 

 

Also +1, I hate mirco SD cards, I always lose them and they are so darned expensive, and something with a 1/4 jack and the power to drive 600ohm cans would b very cool

post #329 of 687

+ another one on SD cards over microSD.

 

I understand why manufacturers use them, "smaller is better" is definitely the prevailing point of view, but I hate the damn things.  Too easy to lose and too expensive.  SD would be amazing.

post #330 of 687

would 1/4 jack make the device very thick? why not use an adapter? furutech adapters are squeaky clean...sonically

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