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FiiO X7, what is your dream DAP? - Page 14

post #196 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

 

 

Then just buy an Ultrabook and any USB DAC /DAC-Amp on the market.

How does that differ from buying a linux based tablet/notebook?  What makes android better than windows based devices other than the fact there's quite a few DAP manufacturers already in that android audiophile dap space?  

 

The whole me too strategy really works well for companies generally (sarcastic comment)

 

Are you saying Android is the only option and due to it being android it has better sound quality by default?

 

I have android/windows and apple devices in my home by the way.  I'm not a big fan of android for a number of reasons.  My developers program apps for all 3 platforms, though not audio based applications.  I am still unsure why so many people default to android as their core platform.  It is inefficient at best.  Why do you think octa core is being pushed for android and not apple or Microsoft devices?  Answer = inefficient operating system. (inefficiently written apps add to the problem so it's not 100% android's fault)


Edited by Shenook - 5/11/14 at 1:44pm
post #197 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shenook View Post
 

How does that differ from buying a linux based tablet/notebook?  What makes android better than windows based devices other than the fact there's quite a few DAP manufacturers already in that android audiophile dap space?  

 

The whole me too strategy really works well for companies generally (sarcastic comment)

 

Are you saying Android is the only option and due to it being android it has better sound quality by default?

 

 

It is you who said you want Windows and definitely not Android.

 

It is you who said you don't care if it's 3" x 3" x 5".

 

 

The X7 is not intended to be as big as a desktop device.

 

If you're looking for something 3" x 3" x 5" then you're in the wrong thread.

post #198 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

 

 

It is you who said you want Windows and definitely not Android.

 

It is you who said you don't care if it's 3" x 3" x 5".

 

 

The X7 is not intended to be as big as a desktop device.

 

If you're looking for something 3" x 3" x 5" then you're in the wrong thread.

Mython, point taken on the size but.

 

I would say that the chord hugo is not a small animal either, but it is mobile, and has a battery and it seems to be doing fine.  And if someone is carrying a Hugo it has to be paired with a DAP or other source when mobile increasing the overall size.  Let alone the stacks I've seen on this forum.

 

I can't take a desktop device with me or I would.  There is no battery inside a desktop unit nor one in the size I'm describing above.  You might know of some that I am unaware of I'm sure,  You been a head-fier much longer than me.

 

Anyway, are you saying if something is a bit larger it can't be mobile?  I'm exaggerating but if there was a small briefcase all in one unit with ultimate audio quality, good interface and great battery life I might go with it.  I can't get that audio quality out of a laptop as you suggest and I know you well know.

 

I stand by the "definitely not Android" statement. I added to my earlier post to explain it a bit.  Maybe you can explain to me why Android should be the chosen platform knowing it is hard to program for?

 

You do know microsoft makes a mobile platform other than the bloated desktop operating system?  (Rhetorical statement, not intended as an insult)  The touch interface is much more fluid than my old Galaxy.


Edited by Shenook - 5/11/14 at 2:01pm
post #199 of 687

I appreciate that a DAP doesn't have to incorporate mobile phone components, but, let's face it, it is the way things are headed, even in the audiophile DAP market.

 

I'm neither pro nor anti Android, but I recognise that to make an advanced DAP, these days, it is rational to incorporate easily-available mass-produced modern off-the-shelf components from the mobile phone industry for screen and associated UI/operating hardware. Why make life harder by straying from the Android platform which is so widely embraced by the mobile phone industry?

 

 

I bow to your greater experience, in terms of programming, but I wouldn't want to go anywhere near Windows, on account of licensing and the fact it's not an open platform. And Apple are only interested in their own agenda, of course. And Linux? Well... I don't know what scope there is for Linux on Android-centric hardware, TBH.

 

.


Edited by Mython - 5/11/14 at 2:05pm
post #200 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

I appreciate that a DAP doesn't have to incorporate mobile phone components, but, let's face it, it is the way things are headed, even in the audiophile DAP market.

 

I'm neither pro nor anti Android, but I recognise that to make an advanced DAP, these days, it is rational to incorporate easily-available mass-produced modern off-the-shelf components from the mobile phone industry for screen and associated UI/operating hardware. Why make life harder by straying from the Android platform which is so widely embraced by the mobile phone industry?

 

 

I bow to your greater experience, in terms of programming, but I wouldn't want to go anywhere near Windows, on account of licensing and the fact it's not an open platform. And Apple are only interested in their own agenda, of course. And Linux? Well... I don't know what scope there is for Linux on Android-centric hardware, TBH.

 

.

Ok Mython.  I do agree with the business side of what you are saying.  Finding commercial off the shelf parts is a way to improve margins but I thought we were looking at creating the "ultimate audiophile DAP" here.  If that's the case most parts internally may well not be mass-produced items though some will be used.

 

The Samsung marketing behemoth has done well in pushing their Galaxy phones.  They are still doing it today and on their Galaxy S5 as well even though it's not the best Android phone on the market.  The MotoX and HTC One I believe are actually better phones and have better features and do not have the bloatware Samsung has on theirs.  The "masses" will generally buy the most common well advertised product as long as it meets certain use requirements. If the intention is to sell the most DAPs at mass consumer grade quality then go with mass consumer grade components and sacrifice sound quality doing so (I know that's not what you were saying).  But this comes to pass and they use soley consumer level mass quantity phone components and this approach is used then the x7 will not be the "ultimate" audiophile DAP.  

 

Licensing is currently free for windows mobile devices and MSRP for licensed versions is $40 per device.  So cost is marginal but I truly believe even the $40 is well worth the investment due to market differentiation gains.  The zune was the last DAP in the windows world.  This is a great opportunity for Fiio.  And it is much easier to program for.

 

How does being "open" benefit a DAP in this case?  I believe there are a quite a few good quality and bad quality windows devices even though it's not "open source."  I run Mint on my daughters computer and ubuntu on mine when I want but it, being an open OS hasn't made it ubiquitous to the best "experience" per se.

 

These items are all for the sake of argument and playing devils advocate on some items.  I just don't see Fiio getting much market share knowing their product is going to be a "me too" strategy.  They have lived on differentiation through some SQ and cost.  Android won't be a differentiation.  

 

If they do move into the cell-phone market the penetration cost is extremely high now.  They would need the backing of a bigger partner.  Without it they will be unlikely to succeed.  Particularly since there are so many other android cell-phone makers.  If they do penetrate, it would not be hard for a bigger player to throw a sabre dac or 2 in their phone lineup and make tweaks to improve SQ.  Don't wake a sleeping giant in this case they have billions to throw at it and Fiio does not.  Fiio has a good thing right now.  Keep in mind margins can't be extremely high for Fiio right now.  Developing for Android is very high if you want to do it well.


Edited by Shenook - 5/11/14 at 2:30pm
post #201 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shenook View Post
 

Ok Mython.  I do agree with the business side of what you are saying.  Finding commercial off the shelf parts is a way to improve margins but I thought we were looking at creating the "ultimate audiophile DAP" here.  If that's the case most parts internally may well not be mass-produced items though some will be used.

 

The Samsung marketing behemoth has done well in pushing their Galaxy phones.  They are still doing it today and on their Galaxy S5 as well even though it's not the best Android phone on the market.  The MotoX and HTC One I believe are actually better phones and have better features and do not have the bloatware Samsung has on theirs.  The "masses" will generally buy the most common well advertised product as long as it meets certain use requirements. If the intention is to sell the most DAPs at mass consumer grade quality then go with mass consumer grade components and sacrifice sound quality doing so (I know that's not what you were saying).  But this comes to pass and they use soley consumer level mass quantity phone components and this approach is used then the x7 will not be the "ultimate" audiophile DAP.  

 

Licensing is currently free for windows mobile devices and MSRP for licensed versions is $40 per device.  So cost is marginal but I truly believe even the $40 is well worth the investment due to market differentiation gains.  The zune was the last DAP in the windows world.  This is a great opportunity for Fiio.  And it is much easier to program for.

 

How does being "open" benefit a DAP in this case?  I believe there are a quite a few good quality and bad quality windows devices even though it's not "open source."  I run Mint on my daughters computer and ubuntu on mine when I want but it, being an open OS hasn't made it ubiquitous to the best "experience" per se.

 

These items are all for the sake of argument and playing devils advocate on some items.  I just don't see Fiio getting much market share knowing their product is going to be a "me too" strategy.  They have lived on differentiation through some SQ and cost.  Android won't be a differentiation.  

 

If they do move into the cell-phone market the penetration cost is extremely high now.  They would need the backing of a bigger partner.  Without it they will be unlikely to succeed.  Particularly since there are so many other android cell-phone makers.  If they do penetrate, it would not be hard for a bigger player to throw a sabre dac or 2 in their phone lineup and make tweaks to improve SQ.  Don't wake a sleeping giant in this case they have billions to throw at it and Fiio does not.  Fiio has a good thing right now.  Keep in mind margins can't be extremely high for Fiio right now.  Developing for Android is very high if you want to do it well.

 

I think what Mython means by cellphone components is not that Fiio is making a cellphone dap but rather just a dap that uses cellphone components like using a cellphone processor and touchscreen on top of Android OS is much cheaper than custom-making every component yourself.

post #202 of 687

Just get a cellphone SoC and make a Audiophile Cellphone FiiO.  Put in a nice DAC and an Amp so I just have to carry around one device.  :evil:

post #203 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by zachchen1996 View Post
 

Oh, make sure the digital coaxial output quality is excellent. Then this could be a great transport for the Chord Hugo :)

+1000

 

And Full size SD that are way better than MicroSD.  2 Full size SD will be PERFECT (= 512 Gb max possible today, and ... more later  :-).

 

And a GREAT Graphical UI, like Sony ZX1, on a BIG screen

 

Same size than HUGO, is OK for me.  This will allow for the 2 Full size SD and for a very large +5" Touch Screen (but don't forget physical control still)

 

And the ability to load some Android Streaming APS ( like Qobuz ), to access HDTrack, and to stream Internet Radio ( Wifi needed for this).

 

thanks....


Edited by bmichels - 5/11/14 at 2:53pm
post #204 of 687

It seems quite interesting! I'm very happy with my X3 but maybe in the future the X7 would be a nice buy....

 

One thing that I would like is a player with more power output, like a DAP with the amp of the Fiio E12. Is it possible?


Edited by nserra - 5/11/14 at 2:56pm
post #205 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylafari View Post
 

 

I think what Mython means by cellphone components is not that Fiio is making a cellphone dap but rather just a dap that uses cellphone components like using a cellphone processor and touchscreen on top of Android OS is much cheaper than custom-making every component yourself.

ok good point Sylafari. I read into that too much then. I am no hardware expert but I would assume cell phones are made with disposable components that are 5 year expectancy. I used to work for Kyocera and they made phones in one of the divisions. They made things cheaply rather than metal, gild and ceramics but rather organic compounds similar to plastic that are not expected to last forever. I don't want that in an audiophile flagship or "ultimate" dap like x7.

post #206 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylafari View Post
 

 

I think what Mython means by cellphone components is not that Fiio is making a cellphone dap but rather just a dap that uses cellphone components like using a cellphone processor and touchscreen on top of Android OS is much cheaper than custom-making every component yourself.

 

Yes, that's precisely what I meant.

post #207 of 687

Almost no one makes / introduces new purposefully build SoC for DAP for the last 3 years or so. Those that still in production are mostly old design that are not yet being cut off completely. Even manufacturer as low end as Rockchip is slowly stopping their DAP based SoC production and switch to Android based solution. If you look at X3, X5, DX50, and DX90 (just to name a few), they all have a heart that is meant for smartphone or Android tablet. To separate the so called cellphone-based components and DAP-based components at this point is unrealistic, since the industry has moved beyond that.

post #208 of 687
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post
 

Almost no one makes / introduces new purposefully build SoC for DAP for the last 3 years or so. Those that still in production are mostly old design that are not yet being cut off completely. Even manufacturer as low end as Rockchip is slowly stopping their DAP based SoC production and switch to Android based solution. If you look at X3, X5, DX50, and DX90 (just to name a few), they all have a heart that is meant for smartphone or Android tablet. To separate the so called cellphone-based components and DAP-based components at this point is unrealistic, since the industry has moved beyond that.

I don't think there ever was many made purpose built SOCs for DAPs and if they did they were few and far between.  Qualcomm came out with the Snapdragon and predecessor before it had an application but it is used for mutliple mobile applications, not just cellphones.  TI made SOC's specifically for specialized devices but they were made specific for certain applications such as calculators and medical devices and still do today.

 

When we are talking cell phone parts the SOC is an important but not the only key component.  Your semiconductor package is the meat and potatoes that go into electronics.   This is where manufacturers are saving cost using disposable electronics.  

 

It's personal opinion.  I would rather have audiophile grade SQ.  I have a phone for those times when I don't.  It would be nice to be able to use spotify, MOG, RDIO, or Songza to discover music on the DAP itself.  

 

Anyway these "parts" are made for all mobile applications including the ones you speak of.

post #209 of 687

One of the current trend in the Android phone market is to build smartphone with better audio part actually. It is thank to BBK (a major Chinese electronics company) and their Vivo series of smartphone that ESS comes out with the ES9018K2M, which makes its way to DX90 and Calyx M. While might not compare to TOTL DAP, iPhone has always had pretty good SQ that is compared to most low to mid end DAP. Just an example of how one part of the industry influences another part of the industry, and not always a bad thing.

 

Personally I don't see the idea of "disposable electronics", given the nature of all electronics is disposable and only the rate is different.I do like a premier built DAP, but I also know that chance that I am going to keep using it 5 years from now will be slim. 10 years from now? Not likely. Could very well by then, all smartphone will sound so good that they will drive DAP to extinction. I am cool with that as well, as I could use one less gadget in my pocket.

post #210 of 687

Yes, it should be like the Xperia Z............................ Minus the cell radios,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, with extra work put in to the audio circuit,...................................better/real DAC and good Amp stage............................I will be happy then since Sony decided to cut corners and do what they "want" regardless of how they really feel. I can really enjoy my music and movies on the go with this.  :ksc75smile: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

yes an android phone without the phone, with the Fiio magic will be wonderful please.............................please,   Maybe the X10                   maybe

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