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Reasonable prices for Sennheiser headphones - Page 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude

I really don't have the energy for this. You want to keep crying and whining about them being too pricey, don't buy 'em. End of transaction. Lots of people think they're well worth the money, so they DO make the purchase. Clearly the market and Sennheiser have come to an agreement here.

I was just offering some explanation here, but if you're dead set on complaining ad nauseum about the price... have at it.

That's precisely the argument I asked you not to make. I guess you don't have another one or the facts to back it up. So long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claritas

That's precisely the argument I asked you not to make. I guess you don't have another one or the facts to back it up. So long.

I'll tell you what. Give me an objective, quantitative way to determine the "value" of a product and I will happily apply it to this. Show me a formula or some way to plug numbers in and I will calculate the intrinsic value of every headphone you can imagine.

You might as well ask if I think Sennheiser HD650s are worth two laserjet printers and a Nintendo DS. I don't even know how to quantify that beyond "if you think they are, yes."

Currently, all this thread reads like is a bunch of people who are grumpy that they can't afford the headphones. They want them but they're whining that the price is too high. To my mind, there's only two reasonable reactions to deeming a product to be overpriced:

2) Buy something else that costs the same amount, so pick up the best \$500 headphones you can.

If you aren't doing EITHER of those, it looks like you believe the product is worth as much as it costs but are just whining about it.

Edited by SomeGuyDude - 4/2/14 at 11:58am

It's funny how while the HD600, DT880, and the K/Q70x are in the same class of headphones, the HD600 costs 2x as much (\$200, based on Amazon prices) as its competitors.  I doubt anyone who has heard all three can say that the HD600 sounds 2x as good as the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude

So what you're saying is all models of something, over time, should go down in price, regardless of if they are in current production and subject to periodic updates.

You must really hate cars.

See the DT880 and Q701.  Both has dropped in price significantly (>\$100 for DT880 and \$200 for Q701) since they were released.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Za Warudo

It's funny how while the HD600, DT880, and the K/Q70x are in the same class of headphones, the HD600 costs 2x as much (\$200, based on Amazon prices) as its competitors.  I doubt anyone who has heard all three can say that the HD600 sounds 2x as good as the others.

That's because that's not how pricing works on any luxury item. It's called the law of diminishing returns. Unless you actually think the \$1500-2000 headphones out there sound upwards of TEN TIMES as good as others (hint: they don't, and even audiophile reviewers will point this out).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Za Warudo

See the DT880 and Q701.  Both has dropped in price significantly (>\$100 for DT880 and \$200 for Q701) since they were released.

So buy those. FFS why do you care if Sennheiser is price gouging? I'm being serious here. Why do you care unless you want the Sennheiser more than the other two but don't want to pay more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude

That's because that's not how pricing works on any luxury item. It's called the law of diminishing returns. Unless you actually think the \$1500-2000 headphones out there sound upwards of TEN TIMES as good as others (hint: they don't, and even audiophile reviewers will point this out).

Law of diminishing returns only applies to headphones in different price and performance categories, not between products that are in direct competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude

So buy those. FFS why do you care if Sennheiser is price gouging? I'm being serious here. Why do you care unless you want the Sennheiser more than the other two but don't want to pay more?

Which is exactly why I got a brand new Q701 (for \$125) instead of spending more than 2-3x for an HD600.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Za Warudo

Law of diminishing returns only applies to headphones in different price and performance categories, not between products that are in direct competition.

Which is exactly why I got a Q701 (for \$125) instead of spending more than 2-3x for an HD600.

1) If one costs twice as much, they're not in direct competition.

2) Okay then, the argument's over isn't it? You got a Q701 and are happy with it. What's the big problem?

I really need to stop getting into discussions with people who just want to complain for its own sake. Exiting thread, take care y'all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude

1) If one costs twice as much, they're not in direct competition.

2) Okay then, the argument's over isn't it? You got a Q701 and are happy with it. What's the big problem?

I really need to stop getting into discussions with people who just want to complain for its own sake. Exiting thread, take care y'all.

1) price does not necessarily correlate to performance, the three have long been considered to be in the same class of headphones.  In fact most would argue that the HD600 is the least detailed of the three.

2) No problems at all.  I'm just making some observations, did I sound like I was complaining?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude

I'll tell you what. Give me an objective, quantitative way to determine the "value" of a product and I will happily apply it to this. Show me a formula or some way to plug numbers in and I will calculate the intrinsic value of every headphone you can imagine.

You might as well ask if I think Sennheiser HD650s are worth two laserjet printers and a Nintendo DS. I don't even know how to quantify that beyond "if you think they are, yes."

Currently, all this thread reads like is a bunch of people who are grumpy that they can't afford the headphones. They want them but they're whining that the price is too high. To my mind, there's only two reasonable reactions to deeming a product to be overpriced:

2) Buy something else that costs the same amount, so pick up the best \$500 headphones you can.

If you aren't doing EITHER of those, it looks like you believe the product is worth as much as it costs but are just whining about it.

Mere common sense didn't go your way on this one, so now you want to go objectivist? By that reasoning, nothing is ever overpriced or underpriced. I don't think you honestly believe that. If you think \$500 is fair for HD650, you should argue that K701 should still cost \$450 too (and it's much newer and has undergone more changes). The problem is Sennheiser, not the market.

In response to your name-calling, I can afford all of them put together. I already discussed willingness to be ripped off in my original post. K501 is as good or better than HD6x0 so I'm set. Stop trying to make it personal, and stick to the facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Za Warudo

It's funny how while the HD600, DT880, and the K/Q70x are in the same class of headphones, the HD600 costs 2x as much (\$200, based on Amazon prices) as its competitors.  I doubt anyone who has heard all three can say that the HD600 sounds 2x as good as the others.

Well, that's not really fair because it's not ONLY about sound. There's also build quality, comfort, style, support, warranty / guarantee, etc. Many other factors that go into the pricing of an item, and depending on your usage you may not care or ever really use these other things. Plus there's re-sale value, some things hold their value on the secondary / used market more than others, like apple computers for example. So while a pair of senn's cost more, you'll also get more for them if you sell them used. But bottom-line is that's not a fair statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmThe1Guy

I'm sure Sennheiser has marketing people whose job is to consider the demand and various costs  in order to set prices that would maximize their profits.  So the prices they are at now is probably already the best case scenario for Sennheiser.

Yep, this. Pricing is a sweet science with many contributing / competing factors. There is also the more esoteric concept of brand positioning, and pricing has a huge impact on that. Even if companies like Mercedes Benz or Sennheiser could sell their products for less than they do, that would change the perception of their brand, and while it may mean they don't make as much on one specific item as they could, it also keeps their brand equity / value high and over a longer term period has a positive impact on their bottom-line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thievesarmy

Well, that's not really fair because it's not ONLY about sound. There's also build quality, comfort, style, support, warranty / guarantee, etc. Many other factors that go into the pricing of an item, and depending on your usage you may not care or ever really use these other things. Plus there's re-sale value, some things hold their value on the secondary / used market more than others, like apple computers for example. So while a pair of senn's cost more, you'll also get more for them if you sell them used. But bottom-line is that's not a fair statement.

How do Beyers and AKG not equal Senn in those areas?

Isn't the resale value is largely based on the original cost? If so, that's a circular reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thievesarmy

Well, that's not really fair because it's not ONLY about sound. There's also build quality, comfort, style, support, warranty / guarantee, etc. Many other factors that go into the pricing of an item, and depending on your usage you may not care or ever really use these other things. Plus there's re-sale value, some things hold their value on the secondary / used market more than others, like apple computers for example. So while a pair of senn's cost more, you'll also get more for them if you sell them used. But bottom-line is that's not a fair statement.

It actually is all about the sound. We're taking for granted that products at this price range (\$200+) should have good build quality, good comfort, and good customer service. For the most part, both Beyerdynamic and AKG excel at all three. If we're talking about style, AKG beats Sennheiser hands down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claritas

How do Beyers and AKG not equal Senn in those areas?

Isn't the resale value is largely based on the original cost? If so, that's a circular reason.

I don't know, I haven't done the analysis and Apples to Apples comparison between all 3. My point is that saying "Senn's do not sound 2x better than the others" and thus shouldn't be charging 2x more in price isn't really fair because it's not just the sound quality that is contained in the price, there are other factors at hand. If the Senn's had one additional year of warranty or guarantee that would definitely matter to me and would be worthy of a higher price, for example. Or maybe they have spent a ton on R&D to eliminate the need for an amp while at the same time not being super sensitive or something - something that is more intangible than saying "better sound".

Resale value is not necessarily based on original cost - that is a factor, but it's more tied to if they hold their value over time or not. Some products are known to be extremely reliable, well built, and will last you years, so buying used isn't much different from buying new. Maybe the AKG's & Beyers do this as well, I don't know, just stating the principle.

The other thing about pricing is it's a way to differentiate a product among competition in the marketplace. So if there are AKG, Beyer, and Senn all making flagships around the same price and with similar quality & praise from customers, what will differentiate them in the eyes of the consumer? What will help people decide which is right for them? Especially if they sound & look similar. For Senn to set a higher price point, they create their own difference - and it may just be psychological or in your head, but it goes back to what I said about positioning. Senn want to be perceived as the upscale, luxury, higher priced headphone brand, and they have made a decision NOT to compete with the other guys when it comes to the lowest price point - at least not with their flagship models.

If price is so important to you, by all means feel free to speak with your wallet and NOT buy Senn's. If enough people made that decision, they may have no other choice but to set their prices lower. Of course I doubt it because this is a fairly niche market that in general places more importance on quality than price - but in fairness Senn does offer cheaper headphones. They're just not the flagships.

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