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= HiFiMAN HE-560 Impressions & Discussion Thread = - Page 307

post #4591 of 17550
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaPierre View Post
 

The way I see it, there's a slight difference, yes. But a small frequency bump won't change the fact this is a downright amazing headphone, very high resolution, tactile and well textured bass with great decay and speed, smooth and well extended treble with 'stat-like' performance, a realistic and present midrange and best of all, a large but not too distanced soundstage with pinpoint imaging. That's what I've gathered from reading about this headphone for a couple weeks. This headphone is a great value at 900$, great comfort, value and sound.. what more is there to love? Easy to drive as well.. there's no doubt in my mind this is one of the most versatile and best headphones that's presently available.

 

Well, the hype is strong with HE-560 as it was with LCD-X and PM-1... Rather wait with these 'worshipping' statements/judgements.

post #4592 of 17550
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaPierre View Post
 

The way I see it, there's a slight difference, yes. But a small frequency bump won't change the fact this is a downright amazing headphone, very high resolution, tactile and well textured bass with great decay and speed, smooth and well extended treble with 'stat-like' performance, a realistic and present midrange and best of all, a large but not too distanced soundstage with pinpoint imaging. That's what I've gathered from reading about this headphone for a couple weeks. This headphone is a great value at 900$, great comfort, value and sound.. what more is there to love? Easy to drive as well.. there's no doubt in my mind this is one of the most versatile and best headphones that's presently available.

 

I take great umbrage with this post, sir.  This is hardly the sort of inflammatory rhetoric to which this thread is accustomed!

 

....

 

:D   Seriously, if all that's true, and I know I've read it before, then your conclusion is correct.  And it makes me wish I could take advantage of that 20% discount tomorrow.  C'est la vie.

post #4593 of 17550
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsh View Post

500 mW or 2000 mW is a rather small difference in sound pressure, it matters much more how loud you prefer to listen. Besides, a certain wattage can mean many things depending on the amp and at which distortion the specs are given. Generally, one is 'safe' with 1+ watts

 

Well the amp I have, despite only outputting 500 mW/channel has a tonne of gain... 35 dB!! lol so volume for me with this amp is no trouble at all. Just the spaciousness sounded much better with the WA6 I tried it with in the store. Maybe I'll have to audition the amp again in a shop here in Sydney and make sure it wasn't a case of placebo. :tongue:

 

So what you mean is amps with higher wattage usually have lower distortion levels as a rule of thumb?

post #4594 of 17550

This is true, but even so one must learn to take anything said on head-fi with a grain/lump of salt. That goes without saying. Being justabout the same price as an LCD-2 and at least definitely besting the HE-500 at technicalities, we know it's at least worth it's price. Many people see the LCD-2 and HE-500 as justabout equals, with different sigs that suit different people more or less better. The HE-560 is the same in that regard, but as far as technicalities go no one seems to think it's inferior to the HE-500, so I'd say it's a solid contender at least. Anyone who buys this can't possible be dissappointed they got their moneys worth, or maybe that's just my opinion.

post #4595 of 17550

This pad concoction is ridiculous! Hifiman should be applauded for even trying to improve on their pads in the first place after checking out what the user community was already doing (ala Jerg's mods). Yes perhaps there was merit to accommodating those with extruded mother nature's phones and hence the second iteration. Beyond that nothing else is necessary - if the newest pads aren't to your spec - lump it! No I don't have these phones yet but I am looking forward to getting the new pads when my local specialty hp shop has them to slap them onto my HE-500. Enough already!

post #4596 of 17550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terja View Post
 

This pad concoction is ridiculous! Hifiman should be applauded for even trying to improve on their pads in the first place after checking out what the user community was already doing (ala Jerg's mods). Yes perhaps there was merit to accommodating those with extruded mother nature's phones and hence the second iteration. Beyond that nothing else is necessary - if the newest pads aren't to your spec - lump it! No I don't have these phones yet but I am looking forward to getting the new pads when my local specialty hp shop has them to slap them onto my HE-500. Enough already!


Yes and no, while I think the tone of discussion has been a little fervent at points, I think it is always in a companies best interest to take client feedback into account and action it where possible/viable. There is an old axiom that says when the customer is talking they are buying. As well, by being known as the company who listens and responds HFM is building brand loyalty and credibility; and in a marketplace thick and growing daily in quality competitors this is a good thing.  

post #4597 of 17550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnietron View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsh View Post

500 mW or 2000 mW is a rather small difference in sound pressure, it matters much more how loud you prefer to listen. Besides, a certain wattage can mean many things depending on the amp and at which distortion the specs are given. Generally, one is 'safe' with 1+ watts

 

Well the amp I have, despite only outputting 500 mW/channel has a tonne of gain... 35 dB!! lol so volume for me with this amp is no trouble at all. Just the spaciousness sounded much better with the WA6 I tried it with in the store. Maybe I'll have to audition the amp again in a shop here in Sydney and make sure it wasn't a case of placebo. :tongue:

 

So what you mean is amps with higher wattage usually have lower distortion levels as a rule of thumb?

No, that is exactly what one cannot know unless there's specs for it. Usually, a 2 watt rated amp will have lower distortion outputting 2 watts compared to a 1 watt rated amp outputting 2 watts. But that depends..

 

Besides, one cannot really safeguard oneself from placebo. I rarely trust my ears.

post #4598 of 17550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx134 View Post



The soundstage rivals a moded hd800 (mmodded reduces it's soundstage)
And the space and clarity and realism I never herd on a portable setup at this high a level. .

Sooo clear and large and realistic (!)

Played some sibilant songs to test....
Was not harsh(!) But was different. . Like shiny in the part where I would normally hear an offensive sibilance. ..

Oh wow. Big ups then. Geez. I keep going back and forth between this and the 400i.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaPierre View Post
 

The way I see it, there's a slight difference, yes. But a small frequency bump won't change the fact this is a downright amazing headphone, very high resolution, tactile and well textured bass with great decay and speed, smooth and well extended treble with 'stat-like' performance, a realistic and present midrange and best of all, a large but not too distanced soundstage with pinpoint imaging. That's what I've gathered from reading about this headphone for a couple weeks. This headphone is a great value at 900$, great comfort, value and sound.. what more is there to love? Easy to drive as well.. there's no doubt in my mind this is one of the most versatile and best headphones that's presently available.

Sounds like the perfect headphone honestly. Makes me wonder what you've gathered/what you'd think of the 400i compared to this. I keep being so wishy washy between the two. Pianoman! Where are you? Chime in again! At $720 it's quite the deal too :P

post #4599 of 17550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Defender View Post
 


Yes and no, while I think the tone of discussion has been a little fervent at points, I think it is always in a companies best interest to take client feedback into account and action it where possible/viable. There is an old axiom that says when the customer is talking they are buying. As well, by being known as the company who listens and responds HFM is building brand loyalty and credibility; and in a marketplace thick and growing daily in quality competitors this is a good thing.  


Couldn't have said it better myself. Sweet name btw.

post #4600 of 17550

There's a lot less info on the HE-400i, but if it's just a different signature like some think it's definitely more my cup of tea. I like darker headphones, and the 400i sounds like light-weight LCD 2 from what I understand. (Light-weight as in quicker with less absolute bottom end, but with better soundstaging and equal amounts of texture). Honestly, the 400i seems like it'll be too good for its price when it comes out. The only reasons I'm not waiting for it are (1) I want a neutral headphone for once (2) I think the HE-560 looks beautiful and (3) I'm not convinced it's technically on-par with the HE-560. I just figure, if I'm going to spend THAT much money on headphones, I'm going for the flagship.

post #4601 of 17550
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaPierre View Post
 

There's a lot less info on the HE-400i, but if it's just a different signature like some think it's definitely more my cup of tea. I like darker headphones, and the 400i sounds like light-weight LCD 2 from what I understand. (Light-weight as in quicker with less absolute bottom end, but with better soundstaging and equal amounts of texture). Honestly, the 400i seems like it'll be too good for its price when it comes out. The only reasons I'm not waiting for it are (1) I want a neutral headphone for once (2) I think the HE-560 looks beautiful and (3) I'm not convinced it's technically on-par with the HE-560. I just figure, if I'm going to spend THAT much money on headphones, I'm going for the flagship.


Yeah, there is, but there's a WONDERFUL post by pianoman as well as chowmein in the 400i impressions and discussion thread that might sway some. Honestly, from what I've gathered, the signatures really aren't all that different. Yeah, it's quite the deal I think. It's actually pretty close to neutral as well. It's not technically on par with the 560. It edges it out in most catagories. Just look down the page for the post by Pianoman. http://www.head-fi.org/t/698974/hifiman-he-400i-impressions-and-discussion/360

Chowmein's is here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/698974/hifiman-he-400i-impressions-and-discussion/285


Edited by SoAmusing777 - 7/6/14 at 6:04pm
post #4602 of 17550

The only thing that concerns me is the fact Chowmein says the HE-500 was slightly less veiled sounding than the 400i. The 400i will go for 500$, while the HE-500 I see at 500$ from time to time as well. Maybe the 400i's price will go down to 300$ later on, but if it is slightly concerning if the apparent detail is slightly less. And yeah, the 400i and 560 seem to differ most in the mids, the 400i being slightly recessed and the 560 being slightly emphasized (keyword slightly). Also, no one has really had personal time with the 400i, either -- unlike the HE-500 and HE-560. If the sound is on-par with the HE-500 at least, with the improved weight, comfort and driveability I'd say it's still quite the good value. If I didn't want a bigger soundstage and gobs of apparent (keyword apparent) detail, I'd definitely go for the HE-400i. It seems like it'll be a very musical and intimate headphone, with a very forgiving sound while still retaining a lot of detail. ---- but it should also be emphasized it's way too soon to draw conclusions about the HE-400i or judge it's character. I'd like to see some more concrete reviews and more lengthy comparisons first.

post #4603 of 17550
POST UPDATED
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaPierre View Post
 

The only thing that concerns me is the fact Chowmein says the HE-500 was slightly less veiled sounding than the 400i. The 400i will go for 500$, while the HE-500 I see at 500$ from time to time as well. Maybe the 400i's price will go down to 300$ later on, but if it is slightly concerning if the apparent detail is slightly less. And yeah, the 400i and 560 seem to differ most in the mids, the 400i being slightly recessed and the 560 being slightly emphasized (keyword slightly). Also, no one has really had personal time with the 400i, either -- unlike the HE-500 and HE-560. If the sound is on-par with the HE-500 at least, with the improved weight, comfort and driveability I'd say it's still quite the good value. If I didn't want a bigger soundstage and gobs of apparent (keyword apparent) detail, I'd definitely go for the HE-400i. It seems like it'll be a very musical and intimate headphone, with a very forgiving sound while still retaining a lot of detail. ---- but it should also be emphasized it's way too soon to draw conclusions about the HE-400i or judge it's character. I'd like to see some more concrete reviews and more lengthy comparisons first.


I actually know of a HE-500 that can be bought for $400, lol. Hmm, it'll be awhile till it hits $300 I feel, but when it does, oh man, it's gonna crap on everything, lol, even at $400 it's going to really be kicking some serious butt. Yes, the mids is really where they differ the most. True. That's the best I could find so far regarding the 400i.

In the review(s) the soundstage wasn't that much bigger, and as far as the detail goes, seems to be plenty enough, but how much less than the 560? I don't know. Pianoman says this: Even though the sound was a little thicker the detail was on par with the perceived detail of the Audeze LCD's there, maybe a tad less than the LCD-3. So, quite great enough.

WAY too soon? Nah. Needing more concrete reviews and more lengthy comparisons? Yes.

I feel that the treble detail, air, (how much more treble detail and air is not known) soundstage (width being not as large as a gain in depth that you get with the 560), imaging, (imaging being slighter) and detail gain (again, how much more is not known) with the 560's while bass quantity gained on the 400i is not worth $400 more than the 400i at all. Now take into account the 560 can be had for $720 with 20% off, then $220 difference is more debateable. If the 400i can be had for 20% off as well, then that's a $320 difference, while 10% is $280 (still a good chunk - enough for a great quality amp if bought used). The pads may also be revised when the 400i comes out featuring pre-prod pads with prod durability. Time will tell. While the amount of treble and overall detail as well as airiness gain of the 560 over the 400i is not known exactly, it certainly is no slouch. I wouldn't say that it would be that much more anyway. A HFM rep did say they tailored it to be like the HE-500.

Also make note of this post:
Originally Posted by chowmein83 View Post
 


 It's been a while since I heard the 400i back at the THE Show several months back (see my post lots of pages back for detailed impressions), but having heard the Q701's for a while (and I believe their soundstaging/imaging is at least relatively similar to the K712 Pro/Annie) I think the 400i's soundstage is smaller - but not by much. There's definitely a noticeable amount of more width to the soundstage of the AKG's compared to the 400i, but I remember the 400i having more depth. I would classify the soundstage on the AKG's as being more oval-shaped, and the HE-400i more like a circle (though not entirely circular - I still think the 400i's soundstage has more width than depth).

 

As for imaging, I believe the 400i is more precise. While it's easy to tell in the Q701 whether something is supposed to be coming from the right or the left, to me the AKG headphone didn't do an excellent job of placing things more precisely - like making it easy to tell whether something is coming from slightly left/right of center, etc. I believe the 400i in this respect did much better - if something was supposed to be placed right between, say, the extreme right and the center, you could clearly hear that on the HiFiMan.

 

Haven't heard the HD800's for a good amount of time, so can't help you there.


The Q's are known to be gaming beasts. So as far as gaming is concerned, I know I will be more than satisfied with the 400i's, as I would suspect many others to be as well. In regards to music, would certainly feel the same.

UPDATE: Quote from Chowmein:

Yeah, that's about how I would judge the two headphones in comparison to each other. Sorry for the confusing response, lol.

 

Yes, I've also heard the 560 (at the same show). The 560's soundstage is definitely bigger in both width and depth compared to the 400i. But from what I remember, you gain a lot more in depth than in width in the 560 compared to the 400i. As for imaging performance, I think that the 560 had slightly more precise placement of different sounds, but honestly the 400i wasn't that much worse here.


This just may be the tipping point here, as I was waiting for someone to chime in to say where there was bigger difference, rather than slight, between the two. Honestly, up to you all. The 400i seems like a no brainer if you can get a 10% or better yet, 20% discount. If not and have to buy it for $500 vs $720 for the 560, then ehhhh, much harder choice. I feel the 400i will hold it's value longer than the 560 though. Just look at the HE-500, now $599 compared to $899 release. Can find it used for $500 or even as low as $400 if you're lucky. I'd pickup the 400i at 10-20% discount, sell it later to upgrade to a potentially revised, lower priced 560 down the road, with all the information I have now. Then again, all the slight and unknown gains over the 400i that the 560 has coupled with the larger soundstage (especially in depth) seems to tip it in favor of the 560 for the price. Certainly no risk in getting the 400i, selling later, then upgrading to the 560 though.


Edited by SoAmusing777 - 7/6/14 at 8:13pm
post #4604 of 17550
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoAmusing777 View Post
 


I actually know of a HE-500 that can be bought for $400, lol. Hmm, it'll be awhile till it hits $300 I feel, but when it does, oh man, it's gonna crap on everything, lol, even at $400 it's going to really be kicking some serious butt. Yes, the mids is really where they differ the most. True. That's the best I could find so far regarding the 400i.

In the review(s) the soundstage wasn't that much bigger, and as far as the detail goes, seems to be plenty enough, but how much less than the 560? I don't know. Pianoman says this: Even though the sound was a little thicker the detail was on par with the perceived detail of the Audeze LCD's there, maybe a tad less than the LCD-3. So, quite great enough.

WAY too soon? Nah. Needing more concrete reviews and more lengthy comparisons? Yes.

I feel that the treble detail, air, (how much more treble detail and air is not known) soundstage, imaging, (soundstage and imaging being slighter) and detail gain (again, how much more is not known) with the 560's while bass quantity gained on the 400i is not worth $400 more than the 400i at all. Now take into account the 560 can be had for $720 with 20% off, then $220 difference is more debateable. If the 400i can be had for 20% off as well, then that's a $320 difference, while 10% is $280 (still a good chunk - enough for a great quality amp if bought used). The pads may also be revised when the 400i comes out featuring pre-prod pads with prod durability. Time will tell. While the amount of treble and overall detail as well as airiness gain of the 560 over the 400i is not known exactly, it certainly is no slouch. I wouldn't say that it would be that much more anyway. A HFM rep did say they tailored it to be like the HE-500.

Also make note of this post:
Originally Posted by chowmein83 View Post
 


 It's been a while since I heard the 400i back at the THE Show several months back (see my post lots of pages back for detailed impressions), but having heard the Q701's for a while (and I believe their soundstaging/imaging is at least relatively similar to the K712 Pro/Annie) I think the 400i's soundstage is smaller - but not by much. There's definitely a noticeable amount of more width to the soundstage of the AKG's compared to the 400i, but I remember the 400i having more depth. I would classify the soundstage on the AKG's as being more oval-shaped, and the HE-400i more like a circle (though not entirely circular - I still think the 400i's soundstage has more width than depth).

 

As for imaging, I believe the 400i is more precise. While it's easy to tell in the Q701 whether something is supposed to be coming from the right or the left, to me the AKG headphone didn't do an excellent job of placing things more precisely - like making it easy to tell whether something is coming from slightly left/right of center, etc. I believe the 400i in this respect did much better - if something was supposed to be placed right between, say, the extreme right and the center, you could clearly hear that on the HiFiMan.

 

Haven't heard the HD800's for a good amount of time, so can't help you there.


The Q's are known to be gaming beasts. So as far as gaming is concerned, I know I will be more than satisfied with the 400i's, as I would suspect many others to be as well. In regards to music, would certainly feel the same.

 


I feel as though I make a pretty convincing arguement for the 400i over the 560, but MAKE NOTE, as you said, there needs to be more reviews and lengthy comparisons, but my mind is pretty much made up.

The metric for value vs performance in high-end headphones has never been and will never be linear, it'll always be asymptotic (at best). If HE560 provides noticeable technical improvements over HE400i, then it may well be worth the price premium.

post #4605 of 17550
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerg View Post
 

The metric for value vs performance in high-end headphones has never been and will never be linear, it'll always be asymptotic (at best). If HE560 provides noticeable technical improvements over HE400i, then it may well be worth the price premium.


Nice word, lol. And well, that's up for everyone else to decide. I did my research (tons), so this is the decision I've finally made.

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