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= HiFiMAN HE-560 Impressions & Discussion Thread = - Page 262

post #3916 of 10893

Every time something burns in, it's for the betterment to the person saying they burned their pair in.

 

Headphone too dark and murky?  After burn-in it's so transparent!

 

Headphone lacking bass? After burn-in it kicked like a mule!

 

Headphone lacking thickness?  After burn-in the instruments were so tactile!

 

 

You never, ever hear stories about the negativities of burn-in, which alone is proof of how much confirmation bias drives that myth.  Fang can say the HE-560 needs 150 hours to sound its best, which is all well and good, but let's not take blow those comments out of proportion.  There might be minuscule changes in the sound of the speakers, but it's certainly never anything that's magically night-and-day like half of what you read on head-fi regarding the issue.  If your 560 sounds a certain way when you first get it, it will most likely sound near the exact same after 3000hours of music played through it.  I know I personally won't be discrediting the opinion of any individual who wants to make remarks about the 560's sound when they first open the box and listen to them.

post #3917 of 10893
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post
 

Every time something burns in, it's for the betterment to the person saying they burned their pair in.

 

Headphone too dark and murky?  After burn-in it's so transparent!

 

Headphone lacking bass? After burn-in it kicked like a mule!

 

Headphone lacking thickness?  After burn-in the instruments were so tactile!

 

 

You never, ever hear stories about the negativities of burn-in, which alone is proof of how much confirmation bias drives that myth.  Fang can say the HE-560 needs 150 hours to sound its best, which is all well and good, but let's not take blow those comments out of proportion.  There might be minuscule changes in the sound of the speakers, but it's certainly never anything that's magically night-and-day like half of what you read on head-fi regarding the issue.  If your 560 sounds a certain way when you first get it, it will most likely sound near the exact same after 3000hours of music played through it.  I know I personally won't be discrediting the opinion of any individual who wants to make remarks about the 560's sound when they first open the box and listen to them.

 

I've never had burn in increase volume, it normally only decreases it...  And I've never heard of burn in adding thickness...  Ever...  Typically, it only alleviates the issues of something being too pronounced, because those seem to be the ones that settle the most.  Additionally, I've never heard of burn in impacting the midrange (seems to play more with the low and high extremes).  Changes are never big either... 

 

I've had a pair of IEMs get worse while burning in, the Dunu Hephaes is an example. 

 

I'm done talking about burn in now... 


Edited by tinyman392 - 6/25/14 at 8:02pm
post #3918 of 10893
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyman392 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post


Can you provide the source for your "burn in itself is proven" claim that relates to something audible?

Audible burn in in dynamic drivers happens very quickly. A few seconds to a few minutes for anything smaller than a subwoofer and there, burn in if audible at all, only takes long enough for the surrounds me suspension to bed in and loosen a bit. The vast majority of the time, the game is over before the speaker ships.

As others have said, there is no evidence or logical engineering conclusion that planer magnetics burn in.

 

Can you back up that statement in bold?  I should note that I have played around with burn in with a few ear-buds...  I don't have equipment to measure on-ear/full-sized headphones though...  As they IEMs burn in, the output doesn't change at all...  But after you rest the IEM for a few hours and remeasure, you may get a change...

 


This is a sample pair of the EOps Sport+ that I received...  I was curious with burn in, so I did play around with it...  I burned it in for 75 total hours, each time measuring the frequency response 3 times and averaging them...  You see some fluctuation in the treble a bit while they are burning in...  However, after resting the IEMs for a few hours after the 75 hour mark, you see that the bass rolls off and so does the treble...  This looked odd to me (I assumed the measurement shouldn't change), so I remeasured this one 10 more times (after averaging the first three; average shown on the graph) to make sure nothing happened.  I also altered insertion depth on the 10 re-measures, it moves the peaks around and past the 10k, but doesn't change the height).  Keep in mind that the original measurement was a fresh, cold driver. 

 


This is the T-Peos H-100 II that I received to review.  This is the second IEM I've tested with this.  This time, however, I was only able to measure for 40 hours.  Again, I measured 3 times and averaged.  Something was off with the last measurement however (and I didn't have time to remeasure at the time), I'm planning to re-measure it this weekend (or next) if I have the time.  Again, you see very little change while it's actually burning in, but more change after you let the driver rest. 

 

Keep in mind, these are with IEMs.  Also, do note that none of these results are conclusive...  I may end up, when I get the cash, getting multiple IEMs and testing this again with different variables...  In each instance, I let the IEM rest once and measured it's final...  I may try to re-burn in afterward the first rest, but have all IEMs burn in for the same length (does multiple "pauses" make a difference?)...  Other things may include altering the amount of time the IEM burns in before being re-measured to compare those results (does more burn in = more change?)...  It can also end up that these were two very special cases, and if it does turn out that way, I'll eat my words :p

 

Questioning whether it's audible or not is an entirely different story.  As you can see, the H-100 II didn't change much, it only burned in for 40 hours...  I haven't burned it in further unfortunately...  The Sport+ did get lighter in bass (audibly)...  They aren't huge changes, but they can be audible...  But it also depends on the person's hearing and how sensitive it is to change. 

 

_____

 

With my teak model, I think I got around 100 hours on them total (burn in)...  Didn't change too much unfortunately (to my ears). 



I'll have to locate the thread on AVS where this was discussed in detail and measurements of raw drivers I did some time ago.

Impressive research on IEMS. I'm not familiar with the gear you used but in general think a lot of the variation in IEMS measurements are due to the difficulty in repeating the operating environment. Not only insertion depth, but temperature and humidity which fluctuate more in ear in a closed environment than with full sized headphones or speakers.

I'm honestly wondering how you addressed those variables, not criticizing what you did or suggesting I have a solution or better process. It would be interesting to see if there's any correlation between the variance in the measurements and some of the environmentals if you have a way to capture that data when you run some more tests.
post #3919 of 10893
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Can you provide the source for your "burn in itself is proven" claim that relates to something audible?

Audible burn in in dynamic drivers happens very quickly. A few seconds to a few minutes for anything smaller than a subwoofer and there, burn in if audible at all, only takes long enough for the surrounds me suspension to bed in and loosen a bit. The vast majority of the time, the game is over before the speaker ships.

As others have said, there is no evidence or logical engineering conclusion that planer magnetics burn in.

I can find any number of studies that prove that mechanics with repeated use loosen and move more freely, but my main point was that burn in happens from an engineering point of view, but it doesn't translate to big changes. (As you pointed out) Sorry, my wording was unclear with that. And I agree with you, I don't see a reason planar magnetic would necessarily burn-in, at least not in any way resembling a dynamic driver. There's nothing to loosen up to make it move better!

My apologies, I shouldn't have started the whole burn-in debate again, especially on this thread where it has so little relevance. =P
post #3920 of 10893

Even playing a violin conditions it. That is why the great violins are often played, because they need to be. There is a resonance that changes as the wood is flexed and this is known. There is so much that goes on that is not totally understood but has proven out in sound. Sound is up to the ear of the beholder. That is all that matters. 

post #3921 of 10893
Well said, big +1
post #3922 of 10893
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post
 

Every time something burns in, it's for the betterment to the person saying they burned their pair in.

 

Headphone too dark and murky?  After burn-in it's so transparent!

 

Headphone lacking bass? After burn-in it kicked like a mule!

 

Headphone lacking thickness?  After burn-in the instruments were so tactile!

 

 

You never, ever hear stories about the negativities of burn-in, which alone is proof of how much confirmation bias drives that myth.  Fang can say the HE-560 needs 150 hours to sound its best, which is all well and good, but let's not take blow those comments out of proportion.  There might be minuscule changes in the sound of the speakers, but it's certainly never anything that's magically night-and-day like half of what you read on head-fi regarding the issue.  If your 560 sounds a certain way when you first get it, it will most likely sound near the exact same after 3000hours of music played through it.  I know I personally won't be discrediting the opinion of any individual who wants to make remarks about the 560's sound when they first open the box and listen to them.

 

Yes you do, the Metrum DACs are a good example.

post #3923 of 10893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemmaster View Post
 

 

Yes you do, the Metrum DACs are a good example.

 

How so Clem?

post #3924 of 10893

Good grief guys, can we move on past the dreaded "burn in" debate and get on to some meaning impressions that will actually help people. :rolleyes:

post #3925 of 10893
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattTCG View Post

Good grief guys, can we move on past the dreaded "burn in" debate and get on to some meaning impressions that will actually help people. rolleyes.gif

+100. Please.
post #3926 of 10893


When I contacted HFM customer support if they will send a return label for the preorder HE560, I got the response listed below:

 

Hi,

 

But later Fang posted on headfi, the content is as below:

 

"We will confirm the shipping date on next week, but I promise we will not let you guys wait for a long time. After we fixed issues, we will ship the final headphones to all preorder customers before you ship the preorder headphone back. I will also provide $100 head-direct gift card for preorder customers to appreciate your feedback, support, and help."

 

I've confirmed with Fang that since we provide the $100 gift card, we would not be responsible for the return shipping.

 

 

Sorry,

Lu Zhang

post #3927 of 10893

Hi,

Just want to give everyone a quick update. The new HE-560 production went very well. We will start to contact everyone who has a previous version of the HE-560 for free replacement service. Please keep an eye on your email please. 

Reply
post #3928 of 10893
I just received my shipping notice from china should have in about 5 days😏
I believe you either like a headphone when you put it on or not some minor changes may happen and you can get use to the sound
post #3929 of 10893
Quote:
Originally Posted by ieee754 View Post

I hope they don't "burn in". I think that would mean very poorly designed driver...
Actually in dynamic drivers this phenomenon is a fact that the drivers perform better. .
tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudepan View Post

I burn in the new 560 on 12+ hours, but nothing changes. I have the old 560 for more than a month, and the sound didn't change at all. I don't believe the burning theory.
Only "Brain burn!"biggrin.gif
You are partially correct.
The brain has alot more to do with it than anything,
because it is an "active filter".
Also in your case, you are limiting yourself by placing that premonition and thus creating an active filter on your ears.

You can actually train yourself to percieve more.
Like that video of the blind kid who uses his ears with some "sonic echo" to "see"..

The human ear is a fantastically sensitive instrument capable of detecting a single hydrogen atom hitting the drum, but is tied to the brains processing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post

Either way, not one headphone I've ever had has changed sound drastically enough with burn-in...
Lucky you wink.gif
We are not talking about a change in actual signature...

Instead of seeing things in extremes of "black and white",
Think of "different shades of grey"...
So we are not talking about, as you said , "drastically enough"..

We are talking about a small or micro change, that in general, will cause an overall change in perception or feel or mood.

That small 1-2% change can make or break your perception of them,
and also the longer you remain listening, the more important it becomes,
Because it is a signature you hear "over time", so, "over time you either tolerate, or accept it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post

Every time something burns in, it's for the betterment to the person saying they burned their pair in.

Headphone too dark and murky?  After burn-in it's so transparent!

Headphone lacking bass? After burn-in it kicked like a mule!

Headphone lacking thickness?  After burn-in the instruments were so tactile!
...
You never, ever hear stories about the negativities of burn-in, which alone is proof of how much confirmation bias drives that myth...  
Haha!
Because burn always makes things better! Lol
The general consensus does prove something is going on,
Regardless if you care to call it a prove a myth(!)
tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post

I know I personally won't be discrediting the opinion of any individual who wants to make remarks about the 560's sound when they first open the box and listen to them.
Me too about trying right away!
No need to wait I think that's going a bit too far.
Enjoy the "break-in"
wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamato8 View Post

Even playing a violin conditions it. That is why the great violins are often played, because they need to be. There is a resonance that changes as the wood is flexed and this is known. There is so much that goes on that is not totally understood but has proven out in sound. Sound is up to the ear of the beholder. That is all that matters. 
Well said!
smily_headphones1.gif
post #3930 of 10893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx134 View Post

Actually in dynamic drivers this phenomenon is a fact that the drivers perform better. .
tongue.gif

I guess it's a matter of preference, I don't want my equipment to change in time.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx134 View Post

The human ear is a fantastically sensitive instrument capable of detecting a single hydrogen atom hitting the drum, but is tied to the brains processing.

Any proof for that? I don't think that single atom could have enough energy to move a hair cell, even though they are very small.

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