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Light Harmonic Geek Out EM/1000 Impressions Thread - Page 10

post #136 of 952
Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelCloris View Post
 

 

Yeah, since there's a limited set number of steps on the GO, the 1000 won't give you much range of use with sensitive headphones. I don't have mine yet, but I would think only a couple before it gets too loud. And since the GO resets each time the system volume changes, you'll blast your ears.

 

 

I have no first hand experience just yet, but I will in the next couple of weeks. But if I remember correctly from the reports other owners have given, that it only resets based on system volume changes. Individual applications are independent and shouldn't have an effect on the GO's settings. Again, that's what I understand but can't confirm just yet.


Thanks, I received my unit today and that is what I am experiencing. The software volume control in JRMC19 is not having any sort of reset to maximum effect on the GO 1000, and I can move each one independently with no governing effect on the other.

 

I haven't tried any kind of system volume changes because that's not how I use JRMC19 anyway, and also because I don't want to blow up my ears or headphones!

 

Early impressions are quite favorable and impressive, I use the Resonessence Labs Herus here at work and so far the two units are sounding similar, with the GO 1000 possibly a little fuller in the bass/mid bass (without bloat) and also more dynamic overall. The dynamic thing seems to be a function of an even quieter background than I get with the Herus, so not louder so much as revealing low level detail on quieter passages, and greater overall punch on peak crescendo moments too.

 

This is a good thing as I am a big fan of the Herus despite what some others may think of it, but I also don't have any super difficult to drive cans either.

 

The Herus is a great sounding unit with the various headphones I own, so the GO 1000 more than holding it's own despite a zero break-in period is quite impressive.

 

It's hard to tell specific differences in my work place arrangement because getting the levels matched is difficult and inexact here in my desktop set-up, and also due to there being two different volume controls available when using the GO 1000, vs. just the JRMC volume control available when using the Herus.

 

Which brings up a question: which is the more favorable volume trim arrangement? JRMC set to full and then attenuation using the GO 1000 buttons? This seems to offer a finer gradation if I'm not mistaken, as if each GO 1000 button press is less than the 1 dB you get using JRMC19's slider.

 

Or, is the GO 1000 set to full volume and all attenuation occurring in the JRMC19 software domain technically better in any way?

 

I just don't know, and I may never as the GO 1000 is actually slated for line level DAC duty in my bedroom system, a Mac mini running Audirvana+. The GO 1000 will connect to the line level input of a Sugden Headmaster preamp, replacing a perfectly good sounding Musical Fidelity V-DAC II due to it's 24/96 PCM and no DSD limitations.

 


Edited by MikeyFresh - 4/3/14 at 12:27pm
post #137 of 952

Set-up the GO 1000 as a line level DAC tonight, performance is stellar despite little break-in...

 

GO 1000 Audirvana+ Preferences

Audirvana+

post #138 of 952
Nice. I was planning to get my Geek 1000 as silver too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junker View Post

The 1000 model is made for big inefficient head phones like the Audeze, where the 450 makes more sense for more typical headphones. You can make the 1000 run similar to a 450 but turning it down 1 bit, however, and I doubt that makes much difference.
The Audeze headphones are actually pretty sensitive (Innerfidelity measured the LCD-X: 0.28 mW to reach 90 dB SPL at a 15 Ω impedance, and the LCD-2.2: 0.87 mW to reach 90 dB SPL at a 58 Ω impedance).

Planar magnetic headphones are current-limited, rather than voltage, so they require amplifiers that can deliver a lot of current output. I'm not sure what the specifications are for the Geek 450 vs 1000 in that case. Something like the Objective 2 for example doesn't deliver enough current for the HE-500 despite it being pretty powerful in terms of voltage output.
Quote:
High Output: 7 Volts RMS & 200+ mA peak current

Edited by miceblue - 4/3/14 at 9:01pm
post #139 of 952

I can see them wanting a lot of current. Not sure I'd consider 91dB/1mW to be sensitive. Anyways, the manufacturer recommends 1-4W so the Geek 1000 just barely qualifies here.

 

The technical specifications of the LCD-3 are as follows: 

  • Style:  Circumaural - open
  • Transducer type:  Planar magnetic
  • Magnetic structure:  Proprietary self-closing design, acoustically transparent
  • Magnet type:  High-grade Neodymium  
  • Diaphragm excursion:  2.5 mm peak to peak
  • Transducer active diaphragm area:  6.17 sq in
  • Sound pressure level (SPL):  130 db (maximum)
  • Ear pads:  Specially designed acoustically shaped foam inserts with premium lambskin or super suede cover
  • Frequency response:  5 Hz - 20 KHz, usable high-frequency extension of 50 KHz
  • Total harmonic distortion (THD):  Less than 1% throughout entire frequency range
  • Impedance:  45 Ohms, purely resistive
  • Efficiency:  91 dB/1 mW
  • Maximum power handling:  15 W (for 200 ms)
  • Optimal power requirement:  1-4 W
  • ADZ6SE Cable (single-ended):  ¼” TRS to 2x4-pin mini XLR 
  • ADZ6B4 Cable (balanced):  4-pin XLR to 2x4-pin mini XLR 
  • Cable length (both):  2.5 m or 8.2 ft
  • Weight:  548 g (without cable - Zebrano)

Edited by junker - 4/3/14 at 9:12pm
post #140 of 952

I'm running it at -0dB into my Pass-INT30A right now. It's a little louder at the same volume level but not as much as I was expecting. No clipping or anything at 4V. Volume control has been completely as expected so far using the OS and these various apps.

 

Mostly having fun comparing Audirvana vs. BitPerfect vs. JRiver Mac... interesting to be able to upsample PCM to DSD128. It'll take me a few days to really get a good feel for what I have here.... :L3000: 


Edited by junker - 4/3/14 at 9:10pm
post #141 of 952
Quote:
Originally Posted by junker View Post

I can see them wanting a lot of current. Not sure I'd consider 91dB/1mW to be sensitive. Anyways, the manufacturer recommends 1-4W so the Geek 1000 just barely qualifies here.
I don't completely trust the manufacturer's specifications. Tyll at Innerfidelity has a consistent setup for headphone testing, so I trust his measurements more (LCD3: 49 Ω, 1.21 mW to reach 90 dB SPL). With those specifications, only 619.52 mW are needed to reach 117 dB SPL.

Yes they recommend 1-4 W, but what do those amps provide? Probably more current. The original specifications for the Super Duper Geek Out was 4 VRMS output. 4 VRMS = 1000 mW at 16 Ω sure, but the voltage specification ≠ current specification; 4 VRMS is all we know at one impedance. It could be very well the case that it only outputs 0.5 V at 49 Ω; we don't know. Again, the O2 can output 7 VRMS maximum, but it's current-limited for planar magnetic headphones.
Edited by miceblue - 4/3/14 at 9:22pm
post #142 of 952
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post


I don't completely trust the manufacturer's specifications. Tyll at Innerfidelity has a consistent setup for headphone testing, so I trust his measurements more (LCD3: 49 Ω, 1.21 mW to reach 90 dB SPL). With those specifications, only 619.52 mW are needed to reach 117 dB SPL.

Yes they recommend 1-4 W, but what do those amps provide? Probably more current. The original specifications for the Super Duper Geek Out was 4 VRMS output. 4 VRMS = 1000 mW at 16 Ω sure, but the voltage specification ≠ current specification; 4 VRMS is all we know at one impedance. It could be very well the case that it only outputs 0.5 V at 49 Ω; we don't know. Again, the O2 can output 7 VRMS maximum, but it's current-limited for planar magnetic headphones.

 

I own a pair of entry-level Grado SR60i that hardly ever get used, but if I ever upgraded I think it would be to Audeze. So, what is your take-home message about the Geek 1000? Do you suspect that it may not be enough for the Audeze? Is there another USB powered DAC that you think would be more suitable? Maybe Larry can chime in to give us the current spec of the 1000.

 

I'm super happy to have this DAC in my main stereo and looking forward to running it off the LPS4 until the Pulse X femto is ready.

 


Edited by junker - 4/3/14 at 9:42pm
post #143 of 952
Quote:
Originally Posted by junker View Post

So, what is your take-home message about the Geek 1000? Do you suspect that it may not be enough for the Audeze? Is there another USB powered DAC that you think would be more suitable?
I don't have the Geek 1000 yet so I can't say anything about how it sounds with the Audeze headphones. In terms of power handling I, and everyone else who has access to the Geek Out Kickstarter page, only know that the Geek 1000 outputs 1000 mW at 16 Ω with 4 VRMS, and that's it. The theoretical current can be calculated from these values (V = I * R, 4 VRMS / 49 Ω = I = 81.6 mA per channel), but whether or not the amp can actually output that much is up in the air.

For a USB-powered DAC? There are other options out there. For a DAC/amp combo? I can't think of any other than the FiiO X5.
Edited by miceblue - 4/3/14 at 9:56pm
post #144 of 952
Quote:
Originally Posted by junker View Post
The 1000 model is made for big inefficient head phones like the Audeze, where the 450 makes more sense for more typical headphones. You can make the 1000 run similar to a 450 but turning it down 1 bit, however, and I doubt that makes much difference.

 

 

 

Have you tried it with the Audeze? I found that the soundstage decreased a bit with the LCD-3 and the 1000 in comparison to the Herus.

post #145 of 952

I'm just running it straight in to a Pass INT-30A integrated amp out of the 47 ohm output.

post #146 of 952
Somewhat OT about headphones, sensitivity and numbers. (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by junker View Post

I can see them wanting a lot of current. Not sure I'd consider 91dB/1mW to be sensitive. Anyways, the manufacturer recommends 1-4W so the Geek 1000 just barely qualifies here.
I don't completely trust the manufacturer's specifications. Tyll at Innerfidelity has a consistent setup for headphone testing, so I trust his measurements more (LCD3: 49 Ω, 1.21 mW to reach 90 dB SPL). With those specifications, only 619.52 mW are needed to reach 117 dB SPL.

Yes they recommend 1-4 W, but what do those amps provide? Probably more current. The original specifications for the Super Duper Geek Out was 4 VRMS output. 4 VRMS = 1000 mW at 16 Ω sure, but the voltage specification ≠ current specification; 4 VRMS is all we know at one impedance. It could be very well the case that it only outputs 0.5 V at 49 Ω; we don't know. Again, the O2 can output 7 VRMS maximum, but it's current-limited for planar magnetic headphones.

 

It's not about the actual numbers, it's about ensuring the amp will have enough headroom for peaks in the music and overall playback that the performance will be linear with a particular headphones. A lot of amps may be able to output, say, 4W, but may only be in Class A mode for part of their power output. Also, prior to planar headphones becoming popular, amps were more often designed for high-impedance, high sensitive headphones and they didn't do a good job with planar headphones at all. So putting an arbitrary figure out there was an easy way to deal with this.  The numbers wont tell you how well an amp will perform though, not by a long shot. :smile:

post #147 of 952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post

Somewhat OT about headphones, sensitivity and numbers. (Click to show)
It's not about the actual numbers, it's about ensuring the amp will have enough headroom for peaks in the music and overall playback that the performance will be linear with a particular headphones. A lot of amps may be able to output, say, 4W, but may only be in Class A mode for part of their power output. Also, prior to planar headphones becoming popular, amps were more often designed for high-impedance, high sensitive headphones and they didn't do a good job with planar headphones at all. So putting an arbitrary figure out there was an easy way to deal with this.  The numbers wont tell you how well an amp will perform though, not by a long shot. smile.gif
That's partially true, yes. That's why whenever people do power calculations, they usually determine the power needed to reach > 110 dB SPL because that will determine the power needed to reach a peak in the music. Even at 110 dB SPL, that's quite a large number and I would probably be surprised if my music ever reached that level, even if I'm on a public bus. As calculated earlier, the LCD-2.2 only needs ~700 mW of power to reach a peak of ~117 dB SPL.

While on the topic of planar magnetic headphones and power needed though, the LCD-X is far more sensitive than the LCD-2.2 and it's at a much lower impedance (Tyll measured 0.28 mW to reach 90 dB SPL at a 15 Ω impedance). Audeze still suggests having 1-4 W of power to drive them, which is utterly insane. I rarely had to ever turn the potentiometer past the 11 o'clock position on the Objective 2 at 1.0x gain to get sufficiently loud volume levels, and the O2 definitely has less than 1 W of power output. Intuitively, it doesn't make sense to get the Geek 1000 for the LCD-2.2, or the Geek 750 for the LCD-X (it only takes 227 mW to reach 119 dB SPL).

So that brings me back to the question if the Geek 1000 really has any benefits. Again, we only know one VRMS value at one impedance value, so we really have no information about it otherwise. If talking about planar magnetic headphones, current is usually more important than voltage, and as of right now we have no information about the Geek 1000's current output versus that of the Geek 450. Power linearity is something to keep in mind too, yes, but there seems to be very little data about that topic.
post #148 of 952

But that assumes 1000 at full output... for all we know it transitions to Class AB for the last 6dB. I just say that because my Pass INT-30A has 6dB of Class AB. So just theoretically this could mean only ~250mW at Class A. Like you said before there are numbers, but without more info it's hard to make any sweeping statements as to which model is more suitable. Currently, I run the 1000 at -6dBFS into the Pass. Sound pretty damn nice for a USB DAC...


Edited by junker - 4/4/14 at 1:54pm
post #149 of 952
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supperconductor View Post
 

Mike,

 

Which software player are you using? I'm specifically curious if Direct/Integer mode is supported in Audirvana. Also have you tried any native DSD content?

 

Thanks for all the informative posts!

hey there! ANYTIME!

Glad to see this thread kickin!!

 

SO sorry I've been out of it for awhile!

Been dealing w/ my wifeys illness and trying to keep work flowin!

 

I used my MacBook Pro SSD/Amarra rig for the Geek Out 1000.

I have Audirvana - but prefer Amarra (its all subjective - but to me Amarra translates the soul of the music, as well as the dynamics and tonality in a way I really dig)

 

I'm about to try some DSD w/ the Geek Out 1000. I'm sure I'll use Audirvana or this other program my friend just sent me that I wanna try...

I have a hard-drive full of DSD, but admittedly I don't use it much - as I have far more titles that I like that aren't DSD.

 

But I'll give it a shot! 

post #150 of 952
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolo View Post
Which Double Helix are you referring to as "other"?

 

SO sorry!

I didn't have the model numbers/names straight!

 

This is the Double Helix Cables Molecule Elite w/ Fusion - one of my personal favorites for the LCD-X and LCD-XC,

especially with the Geek Out 1000!

 

but here's a better pic of the cable:

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