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how is spacial imaging increased for iems? - Page 2

post #16 of 51

I find my Shure BA IEMS are much better at articulating ambient signals than my Sony dynamic IEMS.

post #17 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
 

How articulate the drivers are.  IME balanced armatures are very fast - planar like fast, electrostat fast.  The drivers that are more articulate can modulate as the recorded ambient signals command - creating that 'space' and 'air'.  When I say air - I'm not talking about treble - I talk about air in the bass, air in the mids and air in the treble.  This what is recorded in the signal.

 

The other factor that seem to determine 'soundstage' by a unanimous majority, but not I, is a treble boost.

There's no such thing as 'fast' bass/mid/treble. By definition, the maximum speed at a particular frequency and SPL is set, unless you're introducing distortion. This also has nothing to do with sound localization.

 

You are inventing things like 'articulate' or 'fast' that don't exist to explain something you're hearing.


Edited by higbvuyb - 3/6/14 at 4:51am
post #18 of 51

Why thankyou.  I never thought of myself as an inventor before! :bigsmile_face:

post #19 of 51

I have experienced what OP is talking about, the only thing I can deduce is the phase difference but I can't find concrete evidence on it. The difference is quite real in my experience on comparing the current Westone line of IEMs. Soundstage is likely the wrong term when describing this with respect to speaker folks but it is not some made up BS disregarding frequency response or other measurements.

post #20 of 51

Any headphone or IEM that alters the phase is going to have to use an outboard DSP to do that. I don't see how a headphone itself can do that.

 

My suspicion is that people compare different music and when they listen to a Pink Floyd album with lots of phase effects, they attribute it to the headphones, even though it's actually built into the music.

post #21 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
 

I find my Shure BA IEMS are much better at articulating ambient signals than my Sony dynamic IEMS.

 

How does it isolate ambient signals to render them better in particular? Isn't it just producing clearer sound across the board? That could be due to a flat response getting rid of masking, or more clarity from lack of distortion. The ambient cues are in the music though, not the headphones.

post #22 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post

Some dynamic IEMs channel sound directly, like a tiny headphone, and the drivers are further away from the ear.
Some BAs use a tiny tube to channel sound because the drivers themselves are placed sideways to save space.
These might have some effect on the time delay and reflection inside the ear canal.
Also, IEMs with better response may help because they can convey the time difference more accurately.

 

You're talking about a distance of a millimeter or so inside the ear from driver to eardrum. How much time offset are you going to get? And the inside of the ear canal is soft and squishy, not lined with bathroom tiles that reflect sound. It's not exactly the Royal Albert Hall in there!


Edited by bigshot - 3/6/14 at 11:02am
post #23 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

 

How does it isolate ambient signals to render them better in particular? Isn't it just producing clearer sound across the board? That could be due to a flat response getting rid of masking, or more clarity from lack of distortion. The ambient cues are in the music though, not the headphones.

 

That's what I'm saying...My Dynamic IEM sounds like a typical dynamic headphone...this can't be eq'd out.  The HD650 has low distortion - the Beyer T1 has higher distortion...but the T1 is still clearer to my ears.  I agree ambiance is in the recording.

 

Speed and agility...yeah baby!  I mean 'one million dollars'. hahahah!


Edited by SP Wild - 3/6/14 at 11:33am
post #24 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

Any headphone or IEM that alters the phase is going to have to use an outboard DSP to do that. I don't see how a headphone itself can do that.

 

My suspicion is that people compare different music and when they listen to a Pink Floyd album with lots of phase effects, they attribute it to the headphones, even though it's actually built into the music.

not DSP, I meant the actual characteristic of the earphone

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/WestoneUM3X%20RC.pdf (vocals here are very "in-your-face")

 

vs

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/VSonicGR07.pdf (this one isn't so much)

 

the problem is, the GR07's vocal position is about the same as this one

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/WestoneW2.pdf (phase is just as messed up but the vocals doesn't have an "in-your-face" character )

 

I don't listen to pink floyd

post #25 of 51

Mighty big treble cut in the in your face headphones. That probably makes it so you can turn them up louder without your ears hurting.

post #26 of 51

Yeah, it makes sense though, as it is meant for professional use and I guess as a way to protect their hearing. Apparently it is also due to Westone going for a flat raw response rather than compensated. I don't miss much tbh and I listen to plenty of rock. The GR07 is much more "ideal" but honestly too fatigueing.

post #27 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

Mighty big treble cut in the in your face headphones. That probably makes it so you can turn them up louder without your ears hurting.

 

yup, and the treble cut brings out the midrange / lower treble, hence the vocals in your face

post #28 of 51

I also thought that to be the case as well but if you compare 4R/W40 against the UM3X/PR030

 

 

 

The frequency response is quite similar but with the 4R exhibiting even more boosted bass-mid region. By your conclusion, the vocals should be even more boosted but many people say the vocals sound wide apart and far less up front on the 4R and the UM3X has vocals quite close together and up front....

post #29 of 51

THE ONLY THING a transducer can do is move air.  it can't do anything else, it can't move stuff around, it can't decide what to do with spatial cues, it can't place a sound into a certain spot, or even pick the amplitude of a particular frequency to play.  all of that information is encoded into the music.  

 

If the natural FR response of said transducer is heightened upper midrange/lower treble, it is more likely to accentuate vocals but i wouldn't call it a rule by any stretch (graphs are graphs, ears are ears).  The tilt of the above graphs is pretty different which will give a different sound than just the peaks/valleys.

post #30 of 51

It's easy to see how narrow notches or peaks in the frequency response affect positioning.

 

Try adding peaks or valleys at ~1500 Hz, ~4000 Hz, ~500 Hz and hear the 'soundstage' changing right before your ears.

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