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Looking for help on building a sound system with LOTS of bass - Page 2

post #16 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folex View Post
 

What does it matter the "quality" of a subwoofer? By having a subwoofer you are inherently distorting the music.  You more then likely have 2 ****ty speakers that can only go down to 80hz if you are lucky and then have a sub that can only go up to 120hz. The end result is a left/right sound that lacks bass and a middle sound that is pure bass.  This is why I mentioned the polk audio because it makes bass, makes a lot of it and at a decent price point. At least with 2 of them you can attempt to even out the sound.  

 

I'd like to see a pair of speakers under $100,000/pair that can play the bass range as clean as a JL Gotham G213 or Velodyne DD18+. I don't think they exist, but feel free to point me to them.


Edited by astrallite - 3/4/14 at 7:09pm
post #17 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

I'd like to see a pair of speakers under $100,000/pair that can play the bass range as clean as a JL Gotham G213 or Velodyne DD18+. I don't think they exist, but feel free to point me to them.

LOL
(laughing with, not at--great examples)

Some people just don't understand that a good subwoofer is a "speaker" optimized for producing bass frequencies. smily_headphones1.gif

This is my dream sub. The Seaton Submersive HP:



Dual opposed 15" subwoofers with a 4000W/2400W amplifier biggrin.gif
post #18 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post


LOL
(laughing with, not at--great examples)

Some people just don't understand that a good subwoofer is a "speaker" optimized for producing bass frequencies. smily_headphones1.gif

This is my dream sub. The Seaton Submersive HP:



Dual opposed 15" subwoofers with a 4000W/2400W amplifier biggrin.gif

 

124lbs? Not bad. Most flagship subs these days are pushing 200lbs (or even 300lbs...), I don't know how anybody is reasonably expected to lift em O_O

 

Edit: I just checked the weight on the JL Gotham G213, it's 360lbs LOL.


Edited by astrallite - 3/4/14 at 7:48pm
post #19 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folex View Post
 

What does it matter the "quality" of a subwoofer? By having a subwoofer you are inherently distorting the music.  You more then likely have 2 ****ty speakers that can only go down to 80hz if you are lucky and then have a sub that can only go up to 120hz. The end result is a left/right sound that lacks bass and a middle sound that is pure bass.  This is why I mentioned the polk audio because it makes bass, makes a lot of it and at a decent price point. At least with 2 of them you can attempt to even out the sound.  

 

How exactly? In a properly set-up system it doesn't. The problem is when you have a sub that on its own and/or when put in a badly designed, too low Q box - which even with ready to play subsystems might be designed by the manufacturer to maximize rumble over impact - it will lack definition. You can have a sub that will rock your windows off when the Morgul Horde starts bombarding Minas Tirith, but you'd have to turn it down when the Rohirrim charges or you might not hear Theoden screaming, "Reform the line!...Charge!...Rally to me, to me!" a few minutes later. Then you pop in a concert CD, and while it works nicely reproducing bass for Skrillex, the double pedal action on Dream Theater: Live At Luna Park sounds better with the sub switched off because if it is it just sounds like a mudslide. On top of that, even with a properly designed subwoofer, the problem is in integrating the crossover points. That's the real problem in anything but, say, a professional console or a full-blown car audio/HT processor with all the tuning features that would get the best possible integration. When you set crossover points they don't just disappear above or below that and the other speaker takes over - it rolls off and the slope determines how sharply. Inevitably there will be some overlap, and if there is a microsecond delay in hearing the parts of the same note that came out of the midwoofer and the sub (no single note has only one frequency) while there is too much overlap, even a proper sub and omnidirectional bass sound can still sound like a mudslide.

 

Basically what I'm getting at is that is isn't that a sub will make the music playback crap, but that it takes a lot of work to integrate it properly, and that really is why many with 2ch set-ups just make do with standmounts going down to 60hz or 70hz (especially with most of their music not having that much low  bass frequency anyway).

post #20 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

124lbs? Not bad. Most flagship subs these days are pushing 200lbs (or even 300lbs...), I don't know how anybody is reasonably expected to lift em O_O

Edit: I just checked the weight on the JL Gotham G213, it's 360lbs LOL.

The Seaton Submersive is extremely popular over on AVS. There have been numerous GTGs where it has been compared to many other subs, and it always comes out at the very top or tied for the top.
post #21 of 44

124lbs is too much for my back at this point. I'll stick to my dual JL Fathom F110s, I'm satisfied with the output :D

post #22 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

124lbs is too much for my back at this point. I'll stick to my dual JL Fathom F110s, I'm satisfied with the output biggrin.gif

You set yourself up for this . . . Why do you carry your sub around with your back? Most of us get them in place and then don't move them wink.gif

(hehe)

Nice subs. I have dual CHT SS18.1 18's subs. CHT produces large budget friendly passive subwoofers with high output and decent SQ. Here's a picture of it (not my room/setup):

post #23 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post

How exactly? In a properly set-up system it doesn't. The problem is when you have a sub that on its own and/or when put in a badly designed, too low Q box - which even with ready to play subsystems might be designed by the manufacturer to maximize rumble over impact - it will lack definition. You can have a sub that will rock your windows off when the Morgul Horde starts bombarding Minas Tirith, but you'd have to turn it down when the Rohirrim charges or you might not hear Theoden screaming, "Reform the line!...Charge!...Rally to me, to me!" a few minutes later. Then you pop in a concert CD, and while it works nicely reproducing bass for Skrillex, the double pedal action on Dream Theater: Live At Luna Park sounds better with the sub switched off because if it is it just sounds like a mudslide. On top of that, even with a properly designed subwoofer, the problem is in integrating the crossover points. That's the real problem in anything but, say, a professional console or a full-blown car audio/HT processor with all the tuning features that would get the best possible integration. When you set crossover points they don't just disappear above or below that and the other speaker takes over - it rolls off and the slope determines how sharply. Inevitably there will be some overlap, and if there is a microsecond delay in hearing the parts of the same note that came out of the midwoofer and the sub (no single note has only one frequency) while there is too much overlap, even a proper sub and omnidirectional bass sound can still sound like a mudslide.

Basically what I'm getting at is that is isn't that a sub will make the music playback crap, but that it takes a lot of work to integrate it properly, and that really is why many with 2ch set-ups just make do with standmounts going down to 60hz or 70hz (especially with most of their music not having that much low  bass frequency anyway).

Most home installers recommend setting your subwoofer to 10ft farther than your speakers. So if your speakers and sub are both are 10 feet away, set them at 10 feet and the subwoofer to 20 feet. This eliminates part of the sub processor delay and integrates the speakers and subwoofer better.
post #24 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

Most home installers recommend setting your subwoofer to 10ft farther than your speakers. So if your speakers and sub are both are 10 feet away, set them at 10 feet and the subwoofer to 20 feet. This eliminates part of the sub processor delay and integrates the speakers and subwoofer better.

Don't they know about modern AVRs that measure delay and compensate for it? That's one of the benefits of using an AVR even if you only want to run 2.1 audio.

Not only that, it seems like dumb advice anyway. Room acoustics are a huge factor in sub frequency at the listening position(s). So the best place for that is certainly not always going to be 10 feet away.

Sorry. Not trying to sound like I'm harassing the messenger.
post #25 of 44
Well you have to understand, there are purely analog subwoofers and their are subs that have their own built-in processor that has to go thru analog-digital-analog conversion plus dsp. Theres some lag related there so thats where that advice comes from.
post #26 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

Well you have to understand, there are purely analog subwoofers and their are subs that have their own built-in processor that has to go thru analog-digital-analog conversion plus dsp. Theres some lag related there so thats where that advice comes from.

Not if you are using an AVR. You use the calibration mic to take measurements at the listening position, and then the delay is adjusted based on what is measured there. Doesn't matter what causes the delay because the delay is adjusted based on how it would sound to the listener.
post #27 of 44

Well there's also the time coherence aspect which Protege originally referred too--the higher the frequency the earlier the sound wi;; reach the listener first, which is why some loudspeaker designs are slanted to delay tweeter output. Also remember AVR Room Correction adjust time delay precisely (or should I say imprecisely) the same way I mentioned--by setting speaker distance. By manually padding the speaker distance in addition to the room correction you would be adjusting (imprecisely, admittedly) for time coherence, which some believe is important and some believe is not (which is why not all speaker manufacturers use a slanted loudspeaker design).


Edited by astrallite - 3/5/14 at 6:09pm
post #28 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

Well there's also the time coherence aspect which Protege originally referred too--the higher the frequency the earlier the sound wi;; reach the listener first, which is why some loudspeaker designs are slanted to delay tweeter output.
You know more than me about than me. I'm just a sub guy smily_headphones1.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

Also remember AVR Room Correction adjust time delay precisely (or should I say imprecisely) the same way I mentioned--by setting speaker distance.

Actually, I believe it measures the delay, then estimates the speaker distance and shows that to the user. Some people think you have to correct the AVR if the sub distance is different from what you would measure physically. It's my understanding that's generally not true because it's not measuring distance. It's measuring the amount of time for the signal to get there in comparison to other speakers. So it's more precise than using physical distance measurements because it does take into account whether or not digital EQ processing in the subwoofer signal chain or something similar is adding delay.
post #29 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post
 

Well there's also the time coherence aspect which Protege originally referred too--the higher the frequency the earlier the sound wi;; reach the listener first, which is why some loudspeaker designs are slanted to delay tweeter output. Also remember AVR Room Correction adjust time delay precisely (or should I say imprecisely) the same way I mentioned--by setting speaker distance. By manually padding the speaker distance in addition to the room correction you would be adjusting (imprecisely, admittedly) for time coherence, which some believe is important and some believe is not (which is why not all speaker manufacturers use a slanted loudspeaker design).


It gets more complex than that in car audio. The best processors would have independent time correction for 6ch* or 8ch** set-ups, correcting the timing on each every driver in the car. Even before you do that you have to angle the cabin speakers properly*** (kind of like proper toe-in angle at home), and then when you get it done perfectly for the driver such that the vocals are dead center on the dash and the rest are symmetrically placed in width, depth, and height, those settings will totally screw it all up for the passenger seat. And some competitions are scored with two judges sitting in front, so even getting 100% on one judge but incurring a total fail on the passenger side will not win you a trophy. Luckily I don't join competitions and most people riding with me are tone-deaf; those who aren't just won't complain because it's my car and not theirs :p


*tweeter+midwoofer+subwoofer(s), or tweeter-midrange(on passive x-over)+midwoofer+subwoofer

**tweeter+midrange+woofer+subwoofer(s)z

***Processed time delays aren't enough if it's screwed up badly to begin with; especially if you have to avoid having the dispersion pattern of the tweeter (and maybe the midrange) bouncing off the windshield, which can make for sibilance and louder treble on the near side. Angle them too far and you lose center image coherence, and get louder treble, this time from too much on-axis response instead of reflections. In the end, it's all actually fun when you set up a new car to sound right and then start it all again when you get another car in around five years.

post #30 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post


LOL
(laughing with, not at--great examples)

Some people just don't understand that a good subwoofer is a "speaker" optimized for producing bass frequencies. smily_headphones1.gif

This is my dream sub. The Seaton Submersive HP:



Dual opposed 15" subwoofers with a 4000W/2400W amplifier biggrin.gif

 

I've got a Danley DTS-10 and Behringer EP4000 sitting in my bedroom not being used. I've got my dream subwoofer and can't use it. The Danley will put that Seaton to shame. A single DTS-10 can do around 100 dB at 10hz :)


Edited by Seegs108 - 3/5/14 at 9:54pm
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